Can you revoke a Section 21 agreement [tenant]?

eadams

We were recently asked to have an early inspection (4 months into tenancy) and the landlord wasn't happy with the fact that we had stored some paintings, furniture and planted flowers in the garden. She asked the real estate to issue a Section 21 notice and they then sent an amendment to our lease stating that we would need to keep the landlords items in their original positions within the property during the tenancy and remove all of the flowers from the garden upon the end of the tenancy.
The agents said (via email) she would revoke the tenancy upon signing the new amendment to the lease. We've signed the agreement a couple of weeks ago, but they still haven't revoked the Section 21 agreement.

We are concerned with the following and wondering whether all of this is even legal?
- Can she revoke the Section 21, as from what I've read it remains in place for 12 months and she can evict us at any time once we go over the 8 weeks notice
- If she's written in an email that the agreement would be revoked upon signing the new amendment to our lease agreement, do we have any standing to say that the Section 21 notice isn't valid?
- This is the 3rd time we've had an inspection and are always given suss excuses, like "We thought there was a 3rd tenant living there". Is there a limitation on the amount of inspections a landlord can have? They've come in an taken photos of all the house (including the cupboards with our personal possessions).
- Can she keep us waiting for 2 weeks of our 8 weeks notice, in duress, about whether we will actually be staying in the property or not? We both have upcoming vacations and do want to be house hunting with a weeks notice.

Any help would be great!!!! Thanks.

dancingfairy

See here from Shelter:
http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/eviction/eviction_of_private_tenants/eviction_of_assured_shorthold_tenants
basically to rescind/cancel the Section 21 she'd have to grant a new fixed term tenancy. It may or may not be valid (more details would be required) and she can't act on it until either a break point in the tenancy (if there was a break clause) or the fixed term ends.
A few basic questions:
1) How long was your tenancy for? 6 months? A year? Was there a break clause?
2) Was there a deposit and was it protected? This is a side issue but may provide helpful leverage if the landlord has failed to comply.
3) Does she live in the house?
No the landlord does not have cart blanche to order as many inspections as she wants (well she can order them but she doesn't have a right to them).
df

dancingfairy

She has a right to enter the property, for maintenance and so on. She also wants to be reassured you're looking after the property. You have a right to live peacefully in your home without people traipsing through it every 5 minutes.
These 2 rights can conflict (obviously). It would be up to a judge to decide in each case who's 'right' trumped the others in any given circumstance.
You can, if you need to/feel threatened change the locks. In order to gain access the landlord would have to go to court and explain why her need to access the property was so great that it trumped yours.
In all situations the key is to try and be reasonable. Every 3 months would irritate me like nothing else but I think is reasonably common, how frequent have yours been?
I'd be tempted to write to the landlord and send a copy to the letting agents, explaining that your are happy with inspections (if you are) but that you feel that every 3 months (or 6 as you've been there a while) or whatever you think is reasonable would be reasonable. State that you have details of the agents should you need to contact them and you will of course promptly report any issues to them in writing. You can state that inspections are to be only on a Saturday/ or only in the evening or only with a weeks notice or whatever you feel is reasonable.
df
Edit: by the way neither a landlord nor the agents are required by law to have either common sense or a knowledge of the law. It is tempting to think that they know what they are talking about, but oftentimes they don't have a clue (and they hope you don't either).

Guest101

Landlord sounds like an idiot.

You can do as you like whilst you are in the property.

I don't know what exactly you signed, but it's 2 months before the LL can go to court via s.21 notice. Which will take time to get a date.

If your holiday is in the next 10 weeks I think you'll be fine.

dancingfairy

Having to keep the landlords property in the house is one thing (and may be reasonable) but having to keep it in a specific location? Obviously you have to look after the paintings and furniture and should restore them to their correct place upon leaving but until then you don't need to.
Oh and I believe harassing tenants is an offence and 3 visits in as many months would certainly be bordering on that in my opinion. You may wish to remind you landlord and their agents (who works for the landlord) that this is excessive. Your landlord sounds naive or a fruitloop (or both), as do the agents.
df

G_M

You need to clarify the terms of your tenancy.

eadams wrote: »

We were recently asked to have an early inspection (4 months into tenancy)
perfectly normal.
and the landlord wasn't happy with the fact that we had stored some paintings, furniture and planted flowers in the garden.
I too would be concerned if you stored my paintings and furniture in the garden.
She asked the real estate to issue a Section 21 notice
1) was the S21 served?
2) what date was it served?
3) what was the expiry date?
4) does your tenancy agreement have a fixed term? If yes, start date? Term or end date?
5) Did you pay a deposit? Is it registered? date it was registered?
and they then sent an amendment to our lease stating that we would need to keep the landlords items in their original positions within the property during the tenancy and remove all of the flowers from the garden upon the end of the tenancy.

The agents said (via email) she would revoke the tenancy upon signing the new amendment to the lease.
Pleas clarify: if this is an 'amendment' to the existing tenancy (ie not a replacement, how can the original tenancy be revoked?
Was his perhaps a brand new tenancy agreement?
If yes, dates required as above.
If yes, what happened to the deposit?
We've signed the agreement a couple of weeks ago, but they still haven't revoked the Section 21 agreement.
'Revoking' a S21 does not happen except by other actions ie issuing a new tenancy (see above).

We are concerned with the following and wondering whether all of this is even legal?
- Can she revoke the Section 21, as from what I've read it remains in place for 12 months
There is no 12 month time limit
and she can evict us at any time once we go over the 8 weeks notice
she can apply to court for possession of the property once the expiry date (see above) has passed.

- If she's written in an email that the agreement ( what agreement? the S21? New tenancy? amendment to existing tenancy?) would be revoked upon signing the new amendment to our lease agreement, do we have any standing to say that the Section 21 notice isn't valid?
There is so little clarity that it is impossible to say whether the S21 remains valid.

- This is the 3rd time we've had an inspection and are always given suss excuses, like "We thought there was a 3rd tenant living there". Is there a limitation on the amount of inspections a landlord can have?
'harrassment' is a criminal offence. 3 inspections in 4 months is excesive, but if you've agreed to the inspections I see no problem.

Why don't you write saying you see no need for further inspections until xx date (say 6 months) but will then be happy to cooperate.
They've come in an taken photos of all the house (including the cupboards with our personal possessions).
Did you consent? Or tell them not to?
- Can she keep us waiting for 2 weeks of our 8 weeks notice, in duress, about whether we will actually be staying in the property or not?
If the S21 is valid, she does not need to tell you anything till the expiry date passes and she applies to court. The court will then write to you.
We both have upcoming vacations and do want to be house hunting with a weeks notice.

Please answer all questions.

Protection from Eviction Act 1977

* Ending/renewing an AST: what happens when a fixed term ends? How can a LL or tenant end a tenancy? What is a periodic tenancy?

eadams

I too would be concerned if you stored my paintings and furniture in the garden.
They were stored in a cupboard in the house. The garden was an issue because of the flowers we planted.

She asked the real estate to issue a Section 21 notice
1) was the S21 served?
We received notification via a written letter (AST Notice Requiring Possession) that this was served.
2) what date was it served?
15th August
3) what was the expiry date?
15th October
4) does your tenancy agreement have a fixed term? If yes, start date? Term or end date?
12 months from April with a 6 month break clause.
5) Did you pay a deposit? Is it registered? date it was registered?
Yes. Yes it's registered. Not sure of the exact date, I'd have to search through the emails.



Pleas clarify: if this is an 'amendment' to the existing tenancy (ie not a replacement, how can the original tenancy be revoked?
It's an agreement on top of our existing tenancy to state that we are liable for any damage to the property or furnishings.

Was his perhaps a brand new tenancy agreement?
No, this is not a new agreement.


We've signed the agreement a couple of weeks ago, but they still haven't revoked the Section 21 agreement.
'Revoking' a S21 does not happen except by other actions ie issuing a new tenancy (see above).
Thanks for the clarification, that's what we feared.


- Can she revoke the Section 21, as from what I've read it remains in place for 12 months
There is no 12 month time limit
and she can evict us at any time once we go over the 8 weeks notice
she can apply to court for possession of the property once the expiry date (see above) has passed.
Thanks for clarifying

- If she's written in an email that the agreement ( what agreement? the S21? New tenancy? amendment to existing tenancy?) would be revoked upon signing the new amendment to our lease agreement, do we have any standing to say that the Section 21 notice isn't valid?
There is so little clarity that it is impossible to say whether the S21 remains valid.
Okay, but if we have an email stating that if the agreement is signed it would be revoked, would it not mean that it would be?

- This is the 3rd time we've had an inspection and are always given suss excuses, like "We thought there was a 3rd tenant living there". Is there a limitation on the amount of inspections a landlord can have?
'harrassment' is a criminal offence. 3 inspections in 4 months is excesive, but if you've agreed to the inspections I see no problem.
We didn't really want them to come in every time, but thought that we have to give them access, as there's no written notice in our lease to state that we can deny them access if they give us reasonable notice.

Why don't you write saying you see no need for further inspections until xx date (say 6 months) but will then be happy to cooperate.
We asked this and also agreed to move most of the furniture back to it's original position when asked where it was. But this didn't seem to make any difference.

They've come in an taken photos of all the house (including the cupboards with our personal possessions).
Did you consent? Or tell them not to?
We said they could have access to the back shed to take pictures. They then went through the whole house without our consent.

- Can she keep us waiting for 2 weeks of our 8 weeks notice, in duress, about whether we will actually be staying in the property or not?
If the S21 is valid, she does not need to tell you anything till the expiry date passes and she applies to court. The court will then write to you.
Yeah. Thought this might be the case as well.

eadams

One more question, if they don't revoke the Section 21, but don't start court proceedings, does that mean we would be able to leave the property at any point of time without notice? As we'd already been through the 8 weeks notice? Or does it not work in the tenants favor that way?

Guest101

eadams wrote: »

One more question, if they don't revoke the Section 21, but don't start court proceedings, does that mean we would be able to leave the property at any point of time without notice? As we'd already been through the 8 weeks notice? Or does it not work in the tenants favor that way?

No

S.21 notice is notice to go to court.

You need to serve your own notice.

eadams

Thanks for the help everyone. Seems we have little rights as tenants here, and the only option would be to ask for another tenancy agreement to cancel the Section 21 agreement, or to issue our own notice of our intention to break the lease.
Not the most ideal outcome, but at least we have more information about where we stand.

G_M

eadams wrote: »

I too would be concerned if you stored my paintings and furniture in the garden.
They were stored in a cupboard in the house. The garden was an issue because of the flowers we planted.
Hmmm that's not what you said originally. Still...

She asked the real estate to issue a Section 21 notice
1) was the S21 served?
We received notification via a written letter (AST Notice Requiring Possession) that this was served.
Was it a letter, or a S21 Notice? (Example S21(1)(b) & S21(4)(a) Notices)
2) what date was it served?
15th August
3) what was the expiry date?
15th October
4) does your tenancy agreement have a fixed term? If yes, start date? Term or end date?
12 months from April (DATE!!??)with a 6 month break clause.
1) What does the Break Clause say? Exactly?
2) Was notice served on you as per the BC? (this is NOT the same as a S21 Notice)

Unless the BC has been properly acted on by the LL, the S21 is meaningless

5) Did you pay a deposit? Is it registered? date it was registered?
Yes. Yes it's registered. Not sure of the exact date, I'd have to search through the emails.
Check.
And read:

* Deposits: payment, protection and return

Pleas clarify: if this is an 'amendment' to the existing tenancy (ie not a replacement, how can the original tenancy be revoked?
It's an agreement on top of our existing tenancy to state that we are liable for any damage to the property or furnishings.
OK. So the original tenancy still is in force. It can only be ended
1) at the end of the 12 month term or
2) if the Break Clause is activated
In both cases a valid S21 Notice is also needed before you can be evicted.

Was his perhaps a brand new tenancy agreement?
No, this is not a new agreement.
OK

We've signed the agreement a couple of weeks ago, but they still haven't revoked the Section 21 agreement.
'Revoking' a S21 does not happen except by other actions ie issuing a new tenancy (see above).
Thanks for the clarification, that's what we feared.

- Can she revoke the Section 21, as from what I've read it remains in place for 12 months
There is no 12 month time limit
and she can evict us at any time once we go over the 8 weeks notice
she can apply to court for possession of the property once the expiry date (see above) has passed.
Thanks for clarifying
It's 2 months not 8 weeks, but the dates you give above for the S21 are 2 months

- If she's written in an email that the agreement ( what agreement? the S21? New tenancy? amendment to existing tenancy?) would be revoked upon signing the new amendment to our lease agreement, do we have any standing to say that the Section 21 notice isn't valid?
There is so little clarity that it is impossible to say whether the S21 remains valid.
Okay, but if we have an email stating that if the agreement is signed it would be revoked, would it not mean that it would be?
Please calrify what you mean by 'agreement' and 'it'.
Do you mean she claimed the S21 would be revoked if the amendment to the tenancy agreement was signed?
The email I suspect has no force in law

- This is the 3rd time we've had an inspection and are always given suss excuses, like "We thought there was a 3rd tenant living there". Is there a limitation on the amount of inspections a landlord can have?
'harrassment' is a criminal offence. 3 inspections in 4 months is excesive, but if you've agreed to the inspections I see no problem.
We didn't really want them to come in every time, but thought that we have to give them access, as there's no written notice in our lease to state that we can deny them access if they give us reasonable notice.

Why don't you write saying you see no need for further inspections until xx date (say 6 months) but will then be happy to cooperate.
We asked this and also agreed to move most of the furniture back to it's original position when asked where it was. But this didn't seem to make any difference.
Don't 'ask'. Put it in writing. A letter. You will cooperate with a further inspection in 6 months time but until then see no need for further visits except in an emergency.

Then change the locks. Keep the old lock to replace when your tenancy ends. See
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA580cRHXDY

They've come in an taken photos of all the house (including the cupboards with our personal possessions).
Did you consent? Or tell them not to?
We said they could have access to the back shed to take pictures. They then went through the whole house without our consent.
All the more reason to change the locks.

- Can she keep us waiting for 2 weeks of our 8 weeks notice, in duress, about whether we will actually be staying in the property or not?
If the S21 is valid, she does not need to tell you anything till the expiry date passes and she applies to court. The court will then write to you.
Yeah. Thought this might be the case as well.

Put everything in writing, addressed to the landlord, copy to the agent, and sent to the address provided on your tenancy agreement "for serving notices".

Protect your privacy by changing the locks

It sounds like the Break Clause has not been properly activated so the S21 will be useless, but please confirm exactly what you have received.