Corbynomics: A Dystopia

Southend1

Generali wrote: »

No. The post stated that union membership is fluctuating. It isn't, it is in long-term, steady decline.

There is nothing smug or reactionary about that, it's just numbers.

It depends on your definition of long term. Of course if you only look at the numbers for the last say 50 years, you can draw a graph that makes it look like Union membership is in terminal decline. However if you look back over the last 150 years you can see that membership fluctuates over time. Yes there was a peak membership in the late 20th century but in the context of a longer term view, Union membership does broadly fluctuate with long term economic cycles as well as other social and political factors.

So, as with all statistics, you can pick a restricted data period that backs up your own world view if you choose, but if you want to be more objective about it you can look at all the available evidence.

As I said before, if the Tories genuinely believed that trade unionism was on its last legs, they wouldn't be bothered with trying to introduce new laws, which are so repressive and anti-democratic that if the same principles applied to MPs, parliament would be virtually empty.

CLAPTON

Southend1 wrote: »

It depends on your definition of long term. Of course if you only look at the numbers for the last say 50 years, you can draw a graph that makes it look like Union membership is in terminal decline. However if you look back over the last 150 years you can see that membership fluctuates over time. Yes there was a peak membership in the late 20th century but in the context of a longer term view, Union membership does broadly fluctuate with long term economic cycles as well as other social and political factors.

So, as with all statistics, you can pick a restricted data period that backs up your own world view if you choose, but if you want to be more objective about it you can look at all the available evidence.

As I said before, if the Tories genuinely believed that trade unionism was on its last legs, they wouldn't be bothered with trying to introduce new laws, which are so repressive and anti-democratic that if the same principles applied to MPs, parliament would be virtually empty.

no-one really cares about the TU : it's strikes that people object to that usually have a very small vote in favour.

gadgetmind

Southend1 wrote: »

As I said before, if the Tories genuinely believed that trade unionism was on its last legs, they wouldn't be bothered with trying to introduce new laws

I don't think anyone actually wants unions to go away, just for them to better represent their entire membership rather than just the radical ones who vote for strikes at the drop of a hat.

Having had my wife spat at, and my car kicked, by union types determined to use intimidation and abuse to prevent people actually doing some work, I'm afraid my opinion of them is rather low.

If UK unions could just stop being so sodding left wing and anti-business, perhaps modelling themselves on those in Germany, then I think everyone would be better off.

Southend1

Moby wrote: »

Excellent post mate but you'll find no warmth on here. It's full of right wing self satisfied and self serving bigots who will turn any views you express into a left wing conspiracy. They wheel out the same old cliches time and time again. Fortunately you only tend to meet people with their views on the internet. They are quite good at being more circumspect face to face. I wonder why
Take some pleasure in the fact that Jezza obviously presses their buttons!

Thanks. Yes the posters on this particular board do seem to be particularly right of centre compared to the general population.

It does make me chuckle when people describe union members as a dying breed, living in the past, far left extremists etc, when in reality they are, with one or two exceptions, ordinary working people from all sections of society who know that the best way to achieve and protect safe and fair working conditions is to come together with their colleagues as a Union.

Sensible employers also see the benefit of working together with their employees through their unions as people who are paid and treated fairly and work in good conditions are much more loyal and productive. It simply makes good business sense for employers to recognise and have a constructive relationship with their employees' union.

If you read the posts in the employment board, many of the issues experienced by people who post their problems there quickly learn that they would have been much better off as a Union member, for example because their union would have covered legal costs and tribunal fees that they would have to pay themselves as a non member if they want to access justice via the employment tribunal.

Jeremy Corbyn clearly has a number of people rattled, including David Cameron - the look on Cameron's face at one point during this week's question time said it all. And the Tories' sniggering and chuntering spoke volumes about how they regard the majority of people in this country when Corbyn talked about the real problems faced by a disabled mum set to lose £1800 a year due to tax credit cuts and a hard working young man who wants to buy his own home and can't quite believe that David Cameron thinks a £400k home is affordable for the average earner.

CLAPTON

Southend1 wrote: »

Thanks. Yes the posters on this particular board do seem to be particularly right of centre compared to the general population.

It does make me chuckle when people describe union members as a dying breed, living in the past, far left extremists etc, when in reality they are, with one or two exceptions, ordinary working people from all sections of society who know that the best way to achieve and protect safe and fair working conditions is to come together with their colleagues as a Union.

Sensible employers also see the benefit of working together with their employees through their unions as people who are paid and treated fairly and work in good conditions are much more loyal and productive. It simply makes good business sense for employers to recognise and have a constructive relationship with their employees' union.

If you read the posts in the employment board, many of the issues experienced by people who post their problems there quickly learn that they would have been much better off as a Union member, for example because their union would have covered legal costs and tribunal fees that they would have to pay themselves as a non member if they want to access justice via the employment tribunal.

Jeremy Corbyn clearly has a number of people rattled, including David Cameron - the look on Cameron's face at one point during this week's question time said it all. And the Tories' sniggering and chuntering spoke volumes about how they regard the majority of people in this country when Corbyn talked about the real problems faced by a disabled mum set to lose £1800 a year due to tax credit cuts and a hard working young man who wants to buy his own home and can't quite believe that David Cameron thinks a £400k home is affordable for the average earner.

You seem to be saying that both employers and employees support the TU movement ; surprising that TU membership isn't expanding week by week, month by month, year by year.

If Corbyn had some actual policies other than support for the IRA, then he may in turn get more support from the voters of the UK.

Southend1

gadgetmind wrote: »

I don't think anyone actually wants unions to go away, just for them to better represent their entire membership rather than just the radical ones who vote for strikes at the drop of a hat.

Having had my wife spat at, and my car kicked, by union types determined to use intimidation and abuse to prevent people actually doing some work, I'm afraid my opinion of them is rather low.

If UK unions could just stop being so sodding left wing and anti-business, perhaps modelling themselves on those in Germany, then I think everyone would be better off.

I'm sorry to hear about your wife's experience.

However I think that is extremely unrepresentative of the reality of industrial action nowadays. Having visited picket lines at the local tax office, ambulance station, university, college and a couple of schools over the last few years, I have seen nothing but good natured people chatting, singing, sharing a cup of tea, handing out literature and politely explaining to colleagues and the public why they are taking action. Some passers by can be sceptical but once they have heard the strikers' side of the story they normally empathise.

There may be a small minority of union members who vote for strike action "at the drop of a hat", however in reality if a strike is not supported by a significant proportion of members it will either not proceed because there is no democratic mandate or will have little impact on anyone if it does.

Don't forget that anyone who strikes for a day will lose a day's pay and few people will do that lightly. Strikes are normally a well considered last resort in the face of management who won't sit round a table and discuss important issues facing their employees.

Clearly intimidation and violence have no place anywhere in our society.

CLAPTON

Southend1 wrote: »

There may be a small minority of union members who vote for strike action "at the drop of a hat", however in reality if a strike is not supported by a significant proportion of members it will either not proceed because there is no democratic mandate or will have little impact on anyone if it does.

Don't forget that anyone who strikes for a day will lose a day's pay and few people will do that lightly. Strikes are normally a well considered last resort in the face of management who won't sit round a table and discuss important issues facing their employees.

Clearly intimidation and violence have no place anywhere in our society.

given the level of support you claim, presumably you have no problem with the proposal that at least 50% of all employees should vote in favour for a valid strike.

gadgetmind

Southend1 wrote: »

Yes the posters on this particular board do seem to be particularly right of centre compared to the general population.

Personally, I'm to the left of the labour party, but do we trust Political Compass?

And when discussing the general population, please don't forget that four years of "Conservative lite" with the coalition convinced people that they wanted a full-throttle Conservative government, hence their majority.

It's easy to think that your personal views are modal, particularly if you only rub shoulders with people of similar views, but when the voters rise up and tell you that you're wrong perhaps you need to listen? Just a little? Maybe?

gadgetmind

Southend1 wrote: »

However I think that is extremely unrepresentative of the reality of industrial action nowadays.

Yes, and we have Mrs Thatcher to thank for that.

Don't forget that anyone who strikes for a day will lose a day's pay and few people will do that lightly. Strikes are normally a well considered last resort in the face of management who won't sit round a table and discuss important issues facing their employees.

That's certainly one angle on things, but meanwhile, back in the real world ...

Clearly intimidation and violence have no place anywhere in our society.

Agreed, but in the case of unions, this had to be imposed upon them with laws crafted to prevent their own rather nasty flavour of violence and intimidation.

I experienced first hand their unfettered hatred of those prepared to work, and if the fetters introduced since then have made them nicer people as per your observations, surely that's win win?

Southend1

63% of voters did not vote for the Conservative party in the 2015 general election.