Time for a Sugar Tax or VAT on some foods

zagubov

purch wrote: »

Rather than link to a website which like the NHS tells diabetics to eat starchy carbohydrates which only make their diabetes worse and leads to all the complications that end upo costing the NHS billions how about reading some proper peer reviewed scientific research into Diabetes. I know you won't read any of it, as your bigoted mind is already made up, but you if you had read it you would know that;

Genetic factors have been proven to decrease insulin sensitivity in people with certain gene types, and that insulin sensitivity often leads to obesity. So it is the disease thjat causes the obesity, not the other way around.

You would find that white caucasian people with the genes TCF7L2, HNF4-a, PTPN, SHIP2, ENPP1, PPARG, FTO, KCNJ11, NOTCh3, WFS1, CDKAL1, IGF2BP2, SLC30A8, JAZF1, and HHEX will almost certainly develop Type 2 Diabetes.


http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/edrv.19.4.0338

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18719881

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0801869

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00125-009-1307-x

There have been two other threads saturated with flat-earth quackery about the causes of obesity. This post is the antidote to their nonsense. :beer:

shaggydoo wrote: »

Their lifestyles suck - just like the lifestyles of the millions of smokers who needed to be educated/forced to quit smoking.

People need to be forced to make better lifestyle choices. TBH blaming your genes is unacceptable imho.

Whoosh. Right over your head.:D

Jon_B_2

purch wrote: »

I certainly do, and I agree 100% with what everyone has posted about Food.

What I cannot agree with is the demonising of Diabetics, when they have done no different to many other people.

For myself, I have never felt better.

My HbA1c score on diagnosis was 88, after 3 months it was 32 which is a long way under the cut off level of 43.

I did this by totally ignoring the advice given by the NHS and Diabetes.org and by removing nearly all carbohydrates from my diet.

I have never felt better, and although I was not particularly overweight I have lost 7llbs over the 4 months I have been on this diet.

Cut out the Carbs people................they are killing you !!!!!

I think you need to take your personal slant on the subject out of the equation and look at the debate objectively because actually whilst awareness of the defective genes are going to potentially lead to type 2 diabetes that is not to say that it should not be associated with obesity.

Yes, there are exceptions to the rule, yourself included (and 3 of my aunties and uncles on my mum's side who have type 2 diabetes and are slim - who knows, I may even have the gene), but you cannot ignore the fact that type 2 diabetes is largely symptomatic of an indulgent society with no self responsibility in the main.

cells

purch wrote: »

I certainly do, and I agree 100% with what everyone has posted about Food.

What I cannot agree with is the demonising of Diabetics, when they have done no different to many other people.

For myself, I have never felt better.

My HbA1c score on diagnosis was 88, after 3 months it was 32 which is a long way under the cut off level of 43.

I did this by totally ignoring the advice given by the NHS and Diabetes.org and by removing nearly all carbohydrates from my diet.

I have never felt better, and although I was not particularly overweight I have lost 7llbs over the 4 months I have been on this diet.

Cut out the Carbs people................they are killing you !!!!!

but you cant just cut out carbs from your diet without replacing those calories with fat and protein

so your cut out carbs people statement should read.....eat more fats and protein people....they are good for you

Out,_Vile_Jelly

purch wrote: »

Rather than link to a website which like the NHS tells diabetics to eat starchy carbohydrates which only make their diabetes worse and leads to all the complications that end upo costing the NHS billions how about reading some proper peer reviewed scientific research into Diabetes. I know you won't read any of it, as your bigoted mind is already made up, but you if you had read it you would know that;

Genetic factors have been proven to decrease insulin sensitivity in people with certain gene types, and that insulin sensitivity often leads to obesity. So it is the disease thjat causes the obesity, not the other way around.

You would find that white caucasian people with the genes TCF7L2, HNF4-a, PTPN, SHIP2, ENPP1, PPARG, FTO, KCNJ11, NOTCh3, WFS1, CDKAL1, IGF2BP2, SLC30A8, JAZF1, and HHEX will almost certainly develop Type 2 Diabetes.


http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/edrv.19.4.0338

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18719881

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0801869

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00125-009-1307-x

I’ve had time to read the papers (note I work at a university and can therefore download full papers for free, not sure if others can only view the abstract) which can be summarised as:

1 2013 paper reviewing evidence of genetic factors in both insulin secretion and insulin resistance in Type 2, critiquing some earlier methodology and concluding that insulin secretion is the bigger factor in genetic predisposition.

2 2008 paper looking at the cumulative effective of certain alleles, noting reduced cellular function in those who have five or more considered risky.

3 2008 Scandinavian study of the combination of genetic variants and clinical risk factors which concludes that genetic data “very slightly improves” the ability to predict Type 2 onset.

4 2009 study monitoring specific physiological effects in otherwise healthy young men with a specific genotype, noting some impairment in cell and liver function over a 24 hour period.

So yes there is evidence of a polygenic (ie multiple, combined sources) genetic predisposition in some instances, which acts along with environmental factors. Of course not all overweight people will get Type 2 (although plenty will), and not all who have Type 2 got it from overeating, just as I have one great aunt with lung cancer who never smoked and another with liver cancer who never drank. I’m sure we’ve all heard of the old dear who died at a hale and hearty 95 who smoked like a chimney and glugged sherry every day. Etiology is rarely simple, and health professionals have to work with statistical trends not individual anecdotes. Whatever our genotype we all eat too much full stop.

I can’t find anything that suggests a genetic “almost certainty” of developing Type 2 as you shout, although this is an interesting paper investigating the effect of genetic testing on moderating behaviour: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3041182/

Angry_Bear

Out,_Vile_Jelly wrote: »

... as I'm personally suspicious of any diet of extremes that demonises a particular food group whether it be fats or carbs, or involves fasting (such as the 5:2), or monotony (cabbage soup, a dismal shake instead of a meal).

I freely admit to being biased as the 5:2 has worked really well for me, but it's worth noting that intermittent fasting has a number of studies done (proper, scientific & peer-reviewed) that suggest it can be extremely beneficial for diabetics. Even if you're not using it as a weight-loss strategy, it still has evidence of reducing LDL cholestorol and reducing insulin resistance.

Of course, it's still quite "new" so the long-term research is limited, and everyone reacts differently to food so it doesn't work for everyone.

Out,_Vile_Jelly

I went to a museum recently which showed the weekly wartime ration for the average adult- an amount that looks miniscule to modern eyes (my cuppa-guzzling boyfriend nearly fainted at the sight of the tea allowance). I've no doubt that it could be demolished in a day by many now. I think I heard there's now evidence Britain was at its healthiest on this diet- will have to look that up.

Generali

Aren't refined carbs the problem rather than all carbs when it comes to diabetics? Booze, sugar and white flour are high GI foods so will cause a spike in your blood sugar, oats, brown flour and brown rice are low GI foods as the carbohydrates are absorbed into the bloodstream slowly as the starches are broken down into carbohydrates (glucose AIUI).

That's what the CSIRO tells us here anyway and they are pretty good at this sort of thing.

Certainly you need carbohydrates to survive as glucose powers your brain. The CSIRO advice basically breaks down as eat mostly veggies, may your carbs be brown and have 100-150g meat on the side.

purch

Sorry not the case.

Low GI foods are just as bad if not worse.

They raise your BG over a longer time and give you a lower high, but leave your BG higher than it should be for a longer period which is worse for you.

IMHO the advice given by the NHS and many other health authorities is wrong and harmful, and it is this bad advice that is leading to the increase in complications from Type 2 Diabetes, and of course the massive increase in the costs associated with treatment.

By following the correct diet, blood glucose can be easily controlled and therefore complications avoided.

As for replacing the calories removed by not eating Carbs.

They get replaced by eating good Fats, which fill you up quicker and do not lead to the cravings you get with carb consumption.

As has been shown in many studies and is getting more widely accepted eating Fat does not make you Fat, and also does not lead to many of the health issues it was blamed for after what are now throughly discredited studies.

I have eaten a high fat low carb diet for the last 4 months and my total cholesterol has dropped slightly, and my lipids show that my percentage of good cholesterol has increased and my bad cholesterol decreased.

This study that has been published by the BMI shows how this kind of diet is highly succesful in treating Type 2 Diabetes

http://www.bmj.com/content/351/bmj.h4023.full?ijkey=AN2nBwW6h3wuQJK&keytype=ref


By the way, I am not in anyway saying that being overweight is not the primary cause for people developing Type 2 Diabetes.

My point is that if you take 10 equally obese people, only 2 are likely to develop the disease due to the reasons pointed out, whilst the other 8 will not.

purch

Generali wrote: »

Certainly you need carbohydrates to survive as glucose powers your brain.

The body also converts Protein into Glucose, albeit in far smaller amounts and also at a far slower rate.

Eating too much protein is also shown not to be good for diabetics.

posh*spice

Jon_B wrote: »

I think you need to take your personal slant on the subject out of the equation and look at the debate objectively because actually whilst awareness of the defective genes are going to potentially lead to type 2 diabetes that is not to say that it should not be associated with obesity.

Some smokers don't develop lung cancer, some how their biology saves them. Using Purch's logic all the smokers who get lung cancer should blame their faulty genes for their disease and not the fact that they smoked.

I guess everyone who indulges in bad stuff hopes they'll be the lucky one.

Until they're not.