Why can't Oyster/TFL calculate fares properly

cosmojohnson

imaginarynumber wrote: »

eg West Ealing to South Ruislip zones 3-5 costs the same as the tube only version, £1.50 off peak.


many of my network rail/tube journeys cost the same as tube only journeys.

So this is where it gets more confusing - journeys including certain National Rail routes do get charged at the cheaper 'tube only' rate. The FGW line out of Paddington to Greenford/West Drayton is one of those. There used to be a map somewhere on TFL's site but can't find it now - rule of thumb is north of the river = cheaper tube rate, south of the river (excluding journeys on London Overground or routes they run on) = higher rate.

yorkie2

What was the actual journey?

Your best bet is to post the journey history, or exerpts of it, to a dedicated fares forum frequented by the biggest expert I know of (and I challenge anyone to know more!) in Oyster fares, MikeWh, or on his Oyster Rail site.

cosmojohnson wrote: »

... There used to be a map somewhere on TFL's site but can't find it now....

TfL discontinued it. Probably because it's now really confusing and hard to fit the details on a map.

There's the TfL scale, the NR scale, the dreaded 'mixed mode tax' (as I call it), and now there are hybrid scales applying to some routes out of Liverpool Street. It's a complete mess.

Anyone who thinks that a journey involving any stations in Zones 2-5 will cost the same on any route avoiding Zone 1 would be forgiven for making the reasonable - but incorrect - assumption the fares are harmonised. The reality is they are not!

imaginarynumber

agrinnall wrote: »

Rather than complaining on here, have you actually contacted TfL? I found it quite easy to get an incorrect charge refunded.

https://tfl.gov.uk/help-and-contact/

I am complaining here because I want others to scrutinise the fares that TFL charge.

I have just phoned TFL and quite frankly I am shocked by their response.

The official line is that if you do not follow the route specified by the "single fare finder" (kindly provided by cosmojohnson) then TFL reserve the right to charge you whatever it feels like.

The customer assistant agreed that my journey did not involve entering Zone 1 and that he could see that I correctly swiped at all interchanges but nevertheless it seems that because their database does not include my route, I am not allowed to use it (unless I am willing to pay a premium for using it).

As a gesture of goodwill the CA refunded the difference but stressed that any journeys in the future that are not made using the route proscribed by the "single fare finder page" will/may not be refunded.

Admittedly, if I use the route finder page to go from Ruislip Gardens to North Sheen it tells me to double back to Ealing Broadway (a slower and longer route). If I select travel via White city it will recommend the route that I did take but the route finder page does not show you prices and the "fare finder" page does not let you specify routes. It should be noted that the "single fare finder" page often does not specify routes, the inference is that they expect the public to avoid zones that they do not need to travel in to.

If I use the "route finder" page to travel from Hammersmith to North Sheen it will recommend the latter part of my route and then if I ask it how to get to Hammersmith it will recommend the former route that I took. If I look at a tube map, my journey was the most logical. Additionally if I tell the route finder page that I wanted to travel from Ruislip Gardens to North Sheen yesterday at 22.40 I am told to take the route that I took! .

Surely it is reasonable for the public to expect to be able to use the fastest and most convenient route without penalty?

I can see no logical reason why my journey should not be charged at the same rate as the one dictated by TFL, it just seems that TFL can't be bothered to spend the time to update their route database. In the days of paper tickets, when you paid for the zones used, in the event that the gate would not let you through, the station staff would ask you what route you took and then let you exit.

TFL's route finder is clearly geared towards people using travel cards and not those, like me who have "irregular" travel patterns and often use PAYG. My journey would have been cheaper if I left the underground at Hammersmith and then paid for a bus to Sheen. The route finder page however does not have a cheapest fare option.

imaginarynumber

yorkie2 wrote: »

What was the actual journey?

Your best bet is to post the journey history, or exerpts of it, to a dedicated fares forum frequented by the biggest expert I know of (and I challenge anyone to know more!) in Oyster fares, MikeWh, or on his Oyster Rail site.

TfL discontinued it. Probably because it's now really confusing and hard to fit the details on a map.

There's the TfL scale, the NR scale, the dreaded 'mixed mode tax' (as I call it), and now there are hybrid scales applying to some routes out of Liverpool Street. It's a complete mess.

Anyone who thinks that a journey involving any stations in Zones 2-5 will cost the same on any route avoiding Zone 1 would be forgiven for making the reasonable - but incorrect - assumption the fares are harmonised. The reality is they are not!

Thanks I will pop over to the site at some point.

Regarding the "mess" the 'mixed mode tax' is not actually at issue here, it is the "TFL tube route database" that is a mess.

For the sake of simplicity my route was

1. Ruislip Gardens (Z5) to White City (Z2) on the Central line
2. Interchange walk to Wood Lane (Z2) then Hammersmith and City line.
3. Interchange walk from Hammersmith (Z2) to Hammersmith- District line.
4. Interchange at Richmond then Network Rail to North Sheen

Price £4.60 (off peak)

The fare would have been £2.10 if I had gotten off the central line at North Acton, doubled back to Ealing Broadway, taken the District to Turnham Green and then changed to the Richmond branch and then taken the same network rail train to North Sheen.

And according their single fare finder page...

If I travelled to Richmond via my route and exited the station, it would have cost £1.50.

And again according to the single fare finder page...

If I entered Richmond and took the train to North sheen it would cost an additional £1.90

Total fare £3.40.

So in short.. I am penalised £1.20 for not leaving the station at Richmond.

bram01

I have just spent over a hour composing a detailed explanation and the forum software logged me out and then refused to post it, even after logging back in again. I'm not risking the same thing again so you'll have to go over to my site (https://www.oyster-rail.org.uk) to see it later on - once I've typed it all in again.

Not Happy!

imaginarynumber

cosmojohnson wrote: »

So this is where it gets more confusing - journeys including certain National Rail routes do get charged at the cheaper 'tube only' rate. The FGW line out of Paddington to Greenford/West Drayton is one of those. There used to be a map somewhere on TFL's site but can't find it now - rule of thumb is north of the river = cheaper tube rate, south of the river (excluding journeys on London Overground or routes they run on) = higher rate.

I have since noticed that there are other tube journeys that are overcharged, journeys that are tube only.

Eg Ruislip Gardens to Earl's Court (Zones 5-2).

You can use any interchange route to travel to the station immediately before Earl's Court but go one stop further and the price jumps from £1.50 to £3.10.

Why? Because the only route on their database is the longer journey that involves changing over to the overland at Sheppard's Bush and then doubling back from West Brompton

Ian011

When you say "longer route" is this with reference to the ordinary tube map where distances are not to scale? What does it look like when the journey is plotted on a drawn-to-scale tube map?

londonTiger

because journeys are complex and there are all sorts of tariffs (time, zone etc).

most of the time passengers aren't well versed with the way it works. Their destination and origin might be in zone 2. But they might change at a station in zone1 and have to tap their oyster on changeover.