Upgrading NSH heaters to smarter units.

Richie-from-the-Boro

All elements are 3kW, and a PartL two element cylinder is usually a 27" bottom boshed fit for the night rate element.

- the standard copper about £18
- the incoloy are about £23
- the titanium about £30

no deeper than 15cm

A storage heater contains bricks each brick measuring 230mm X 190mm X 50MM (40mm in centre) weighs 7.5Kg and each single brick will hold 1.5kWh of stored heat and there are 16 of these bricks in each normal living room heater that's 120Kg for the bricks add to that the 5Kg for the steel case. Heat retained by the bricks is capable of storing a charge acceptance over x 7 hours, of for example 17.85kWh in the case of a smaller 2.55kW rating and 23.8kWh in a standard 16 brick living area heater this heat is then released into the room over the next 18 hours when the storage heater is tele-switched off. Night store heaters in the UK are understood to be charged overnight at an electricity tariff cost of about a third of the normal core day rate. No deeper than 15cm is never going to happen for 'storage'. You need a different plan. The small ecombi Owain Moneysaver refers to is the thinnest but caution because they don't declare the important 'stand off' size. Radiated heat is good convected heat is a waste and I wouldn't have fan assisted if they were free.

Klendathu

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

All elements are 3kW, and a PartL two element cylinder is usually a 27" bottom boshed fit for the night rate element.

Both my elements are 13". A 27" would suggest an absolutely huge water heater - I have a one bedroom flat. I'm using the toughest ones I can find, which for me are the OEM Gledhill XB482 parts which are fairly cheap in trade.

No deeper than 15cm is never going to happen for 'storage'. You need a different plan.

The storage heater I have in the hall - a 20-25 year old Dimplex XL12N is 146mm deep. Just looking at Dimplex they offer a range a of storage heaters ~15cm so this advice is unhelpful.

HappyMJ

Klendathu wrote: »

As I mentioned in my first post, the heater in the hall also heats the bathroom and keeps the kitchen and bedroom from getting too cold. Because hot air does not disperse evenly it would take a massive amount of heat in the living room to permeate the hall then the other rooms and this would likely be incredibly expensive and mean my living was uncomfortably hot.

The two existing heaters seem well placed for heat dispersal given the shape of my flat, it's just my awkward desire to have a more efficient and smart hall unit that is proving difficult.

I may well just have to settle for a Dimplex XLS12N. I'm not married to Dimplex heaters but they've been reliable for me.

Klendathu wrote: »

Both my elements are 13". A 27" would suggest an absolutely huge water heater - I have a one bedroom flat. I'm using the toughest ones I can find, which for me are the OEM Gledhill XB482 parts which are fairly cheap in trade.



The storage heater I have in the hall - a 20-25 year old Dimplex XL12N is 146mm deep. Just looking at Dimplex they offer a range a of storage heaters ~15cm so this advice is unhelpful.

You did request a smart programmable NSH under 150mm similar to the Quantum. Have you found one of those yet?

Klendathu

HappyMJ wrote: »

You did request a smart programmable NSH under 150mm similar to the Quantum. Have you found one of those yet?

No, I'm still looking - although I've not had as much time to research the multituide of storage heater vendors as I'd like - yet. I was hoping somebody here would have had a similar use case need and found one they could point me too.

Is this a reference to my reply to Richie-from-the-Boro's last post where he claimed NSH (not a smart NSH) couldn't be thinner than 15cm and where the argument seems predicated on the size and thermal characteristics of the thermal bricks?

Dimplex's own model and technical specifications demonstrate that being smart do not necessitate a larger product. The CXLS (NSH+convector) range are 195mm deep the Quantums are 185mm deep. My own experience of almost twenty years using the existing 50cm wide, 70cm high, 15cm deep NSH demonstrates that a small unit is more than capable of holding and releasing enough heat for the hall and adjacent rooms.

I'll keep looking for something smarter and if I find something, I'll post details.

Cardew

Klendathu wrote: »

Yes, I moved here in 1996 and it was Economy 7 then and I've been happy with that tariff and the costs for ample heating and hot water ever since. My electricity bill has never exceeded £35/month (averaged annually as usual) which is what it is now with the relatively high industry energy costs.

I have zero tolerance for cold and would much prefer the NSHs take in a little too much heat and not need them than be cold I've just had the 25 year old single pane wooden windows replaced with A rated double glazed UPVC windows so along with smarter NSHs I think I can put a dent in my already low electricity bill. But it all mounts up over the years!

Much as I agree with the thrust of Richie's posts on the advantages of NSHs, as size appears to be a real issue I would at least consider another tack - namely panel heaters.


With electricity bills averaging a very low £35 monthly(£420pa) on an Economy 7 tariff I suspect your bills would be very little higher on a 'normal' 24/7 tariff with panel heaters.


You can buy attractive panel heaters and a sophisticated control system (i.e. individual heater timing, remote control and individual thermostats) cheaper than Dimplex Quatums. This system will give you far greater control and flexibility than NSHs


Obviously you need to steer clear of hugely expensive heaters marketed with all sorts of stupid claims. All electrical heaters give out exactly the same amount of heat for the same consumption of electricity.

Richie-from-the-Boro

Klendathu wrote: »

Both my elements are 13". A 27" would suggest an absolutely huge water heater - I have a one bedroom flat. I'm using the toughest ones I can find, which for me are the OEM Gledhill XB482 parts which are fairly cheap in trade.



The storage heater I have in the hall - a 20-25 year old Dimplex XL12N is 146mm deep. Just looking at Dimplex they offer a range a of storage heaters ~15cm so this advice is unhelpful.

I gave a price for the biggest as an indicator only, only you know the secret of the size of your cylinder and therefore the size of the element needed, so you calc the price for the 11 or 14".

Given that you clearly need no help or information from me [my comments are "unhelpful"] I leave you to the remainder of the group who I'm sure will continue to inform and give an opinion.

Klendathu

Cardew wrote: »

Much as I agree with the thrust of Richie's posts on the advantages of NSHs, as size appears to be a real issue I would at least consider another tack - namely panel heaters.

With electricity bills averaging a very low £35 monthly(£420pa) on an Economy 7 tariff I suspect your bills would be very little higher on a 'normal' 24/7 tariff with panel heaters.

Thanks, this is a very interesting idea. I'm happy with my choice of a Quantum QM125 NSH in the living room because this is the room I spend the most time and thus want to be consistently and well heated but perhaps a programmable panel heater like Dimplex's Q-Rad would suffice in the hall.

Having had a quick read of the Q-Rad manual it appears to have the same programmabale ability of the Quantum NSH units; four profiels (out all day, home all day, holiday and user timer) each with a bespoke 7 day programmable timer.

THANK YOU!

Cardew

It surely can't be a good idea to mix a NSH running on an Economy 7 tariff and a panel heater on the same tariff using the high daily unit rates.

lstar337

Klendathu wrote: »

Thanks, this is a very interesting idea. I'm happy with my choice of a Quantum QM125 NSH in the living room because this is the room I spend the most time and thus want to be consistently and well heated but perhaps a programmable panel heater like Dimplex's Q-Rad would suffice in the hall.

Having had a quick read of the Q-Rad manual it appears to have the same programmabale ability of the Quantum NSH units; four profiels (out all day, home all day, holiday and user timer) each with a bespoke 7 day programmable timer.

THANK YOU!

But if you stick to E7 then the Q-Rad will be using expensive day rate electric for most of the time it is on, and if you are using it to heat a bedroom, bathroom, and hall then it will be expensive to run.

I think you should stick with NSH and go for a simple model (XLS or eqv.) or get another Quantum and get over the fact that it takes up more space.

If you want to trial a panel heater in the hall get a cheapo portable oil rad and see how much it bumps your usage, then you can make the decision to go panel or NSH later on.

Klendathu

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

I gave a price for the biggest as an indicator only, only you know the secret of the size of your cylinder and therefore the size of the element needed, so you calc the price for the 11 or 14".

Apologies, this wasn't clear from your post.

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

Given that you clearly need no help or information from me [my comments are "unhelpful"] I leave you to the remainder of the group who I'm sure will continue to inform and give an opinion.

I'd like to address this as new user to these forums and as somebody who welcomes all advice but who is obviously not familiar with any of the forum participants.

Your first reply here was a bit of anti-Rointe/panel heater narrative (which having looked at your posting history seems be a running theme) that didn't help me as I said in my first post I was looking at NSH rather than panels - although ironically I'm now considering a Q-Rad panel for the hall, but that wasn't my original question. Your next reply in this thread was your can't get a NSH thinner than 15cm even though I have one now and there are several sold by Dimplex so that statement is patently incorrect.

I have no axe to grind here and I'm genuinly grateful to everybody who responded to this thread but your individual contributions were objectively unhelpful. I felt like you were using the thread as a sandbox for your views and if I am permitted to be blunt, my perception of your postings were those of a rabid storage heater sales person lacking objectively. I'm not saying this is what you are, only what I took away.

That said I do think you were trying to help so a sincere thank you!