Buying house with manhole under extension

F1001

Hi All,

First time here and first-time buyer - I am desperate for some help please!

I have found a lovely house with offer accepted for my mum and I, but on second viewing I found out from the owner that the rear extension was built in 1998 and goes over the manhole preventing access to the drain (it is near the back French doors and under laminate flooring) - and I think it is actually a sewer not just a drain as it is shared with 8 other houses (this house is no. 4 in the set). I am not sure if there is another manhole or inspection chamber / other access point underneath / near the house but owner doesn't seem to know. When I asked the owner what happens if there is a blockage the owner said he has never had one but wouldn't know how to access the pipes.

My concerns are as the work was done before 2011, there is no build over agreement with water company which would mean that Thames Water can come along and demolish the extension if they need to access the sewer pipes? There was planning permission and building control permission but I don't think there is any paperwork that shows certification that the works were done according to plan and that it was done properly.
Also, I will likely be asked (and would want to get for peace of mind) a drain survey but not sure how to ask for this as the seller is not going to want to open up the manhole as it is underneath the laminate flooring of the extension now.

And even if we do get a survey done somehow and the drains are all good, what if TW do want to access for whatever reason - I will have to still have to fork out the cost of digging up the extension?
The survey and searches have not been done yet and my solicitor has not started work - wanted to find out as much as possible before having to spend money and time on a no go. And no point going further if seller will not allow the drain survey.

My questions:
1) Is this info about the build over and manhole a deal breaker?
2) What can I do to make sure I am covered enough to purchase the property with peace of mind and to make sure I will not have any problems selling in the future?

Also, the main soil vent is down through the (now) middle of the house and this is where the upstairs bathroom and downstairs cloakroom connect to. I was hoping to convert the garage on the side one day into a downstairs bedroom and ensuite but not sure if that will work if the pipes are underneath the house and I would need to dig up the extension to enable this too.

Thanks so much in advance for your help!!

F1001

Also, the owner says that when the extension was done in '98 the clay pipes were replaced with plastic ones. Not sure if that makes any difference?

Davesnave

You seem to think that a build-over agreement would protect you in the event of Thames Water needing to access the drain, but build-over agreements always allow the water companies whatever access they need, including demolition, though with modern equipment, it should not come to that these days.

They might not go out of their way to be helpful, however, if someone had illegally blocked what access they have.

Ripping up a laminate floor would be easy enough, but that's not the point. The more serious consideration is that the owner/builder was daft enough to cover an access point in the first place, and that the council apparently let them.

So, let's be clear: is there any building control sign-off for this extension? If there isn't, it seems that the work wasn't inspected and is therefore likely not to comply with regs. This is quite seperate from the other matter of no build-over agreement

It's straightforward to incorporate an air tight cover within a building in situations like this, and to then infill it with flooring to match the surrounds, but again, as this hasn't happened, it looks like more confirmation of a bodge job.

People who cut administrative corners almost invariably do the same with the physical build because they are amateurs with no foresight. I'd only make enquiries that cost nothing at this stage.

Bridging a sewer usually involves special attention to foundations, without which the building might put the drain under extra load, leading to failure at any time in the future.

Doozergirl

Hang on, you've said it has Building Control 'permission' or approval, so there should be no problem. They oversee what is done, so yes, there is proof that what was done has been carried out properly.

Unless this extension is massive, you should be able to rod from either side. That may be from the neighbour's land unless rodding access has been put in outside your extension.

Otherwise, worst case scenario is lifting the laminate. That laminate clhld have been put in at any point over the last 17 years - it doesn't make the original builder bad at what they do!

Davesnave

I'm confused! So what does this mean?

"There was planning permission and building control permission but I don't think there is any paperwork that shows certification that the works were done according to plan and that it was done properly."

Sedge123

I'm not sure I would continue with a manhole cover under there. We are progressing with a sale with a pipe under the corner of the extension as long as the vendors provide indemnity insurance but s manhole cover would be a deal breaker for me I think.
It sounds as though they applied for and got planning permission but never got the building regs sign off and completion certificate.

dirty_magic

We had the same issue. We were told that as the work was done with building regulations approval there would be a deemed build over agreement in place. Our solicitor found the water board to be pretty useless, they couldn't even tell us if there was a public sewer on our land or not because they haven't mapped them all since the changes came in.

If you don't have building regs, there won't be a build over agreement. It's up to you whether it's a deal breaker. It's possible to get an indemnity policy, but that doesn't really help you if the building falls down because it wasn't built properly.

This link explains your options:

http://www.trethowans.com/site/library/legalnews/lack_of_building_regulation_consent_why_legal_indemnity_policies

To be honest the only time it would really bother me is if I intended to sell in the future, because it can cause problems selling. If I intended to stay there and the building was deemed ok by a structural survey I'd go ahead.

F1001

Hi All,


Wow - thank you all so much for your posts, really grateful for your help!
So frustrating this is an issue because until now we thought it was perfect


So I think what Sedge123 has suggested may be what happened - "It sounds as though they applied for and got planning permission but never got the building regs sign off and completion certificate". I had asked the owner if he has any other paperwork not just the approvals to go ahead and he said someone came to check it was all ok but he can't remember getting any paperwork for it.


Not sure if every house in the set has a manhole or if this one is meant to be serving a few of the houses...thinking of going over to see the neighbours today (they also have had an extension done in the same place) and see what they say.
Doozergirl, how does the rodding work? How can I tell where the rodding access is if it is somewhere else around the property?


I read that nowadays you can't build over manholes due to the increased risk of flooding etc, especially if they serve shared sewers, but one solution is to have to remove it completely and reconstruct with a Y -junction -
Would this be a worthwhile solution to consider?
And what other things would I have to check to make sure this would even be feasible with this house and location?
And if it is, how much would that cost?
Would this issue impact any potential to add another bathroom / shower room downstairs?


So confused, I found another property for us which needs a lot of cosmetic work and the layout needs changing slightly for us so was thinking it's all too much work for me and mum but now it doesn't seem as scary as this sewage waste, flood-prone one! .


We are in a situation where we need to find a new home asap but potentially may want to sell and move abroad in say 3-5 years time (maybe) so that's why need to consider resale value and issues.

F1001

I also read that the pipes should be replaced like-for-like and in this case when they did the ext in 98 the clay pipes were replaced with larger, plastic ones according to the owner - is that in issue?


And also is the main soil pipe running inside the house going to be another issue as I am assuming there is no access to this either?


Thank you!!!

Doozergirl

F1001 wrote: »

I also read that the pipes should be replaced like-for-like and in this case when they did the ext in 98 the clay pipes were replaced with larger, plastic ones according to the owner - is that in issue?


And also is the main soil pipe running inside the house going to be another issue as I am assuming there is no access to this either?


Thank you!!!

You're going way too far asking us these questions. Have a CCTV survey carried out for about £100 and see if the drainage guys are happy. They'll also tell you what things are made off. When you build over and leave the manhole in, you wouldn't replace anything. That's the point of leaving the manhole.

If the manhole has gone, then it is normal to replace in plastic these days. It does a better job.

I would be astounded if building regs drawings had been produced, inspections carried out but it didn't comply. The very first inspection would have been to check footings and drainage. Your vendors need to look for the certificate. It might be that a final inspection wasn't carried out, perhaps, but that's not the end of the world.

F1001

Ok thanks this is a little more reassuring


I definitely will ask the owner to check again for the certs - if he can't find them then maybe he get copies from the BCO, or get it checked now? If he offers an indemnity policy instead would that be acceptable?
Is this issue worth changing my homebuyer survey to a structural survey?
I also read that I should not contact TWater in case this puts an indemnity policy at risk - is this true? It would be good to ask them to confirm they won't demolish the place when they feel like it.


I really feel it should be the seller paying for the CCTV, drain survey and doing all this run around before I start asking all these questions but I guess this really is a sellers market and it's going to be left for me to take it or leave it!