Buying house- build over, building regs advice

porgiegeorgie

Hi all,

If anyone with experience of sewers, building control, water companies and extensions could help me here I would be very grateful for some advice.

I am in the process of buying a house which had a single story extension built in 2008 by the current owner.

Two things came up in the conveyancing searches- (1) that a building regulation application was made but no completion certificate was recorded, (2) that the extension was been built over a section 24 sewer pipe.

The owners stated that they had a building regs completion certificate but lost it and have spent the past six weeks getting a regularisation certificate instead. During this time I enquired several times (through our solicitors) about whether they obtained a build over agreement from Yorkshire Water to build over the sewer pipe but no answer was ever forthcoming. This week the regularisation was signed off and I enquired again about the build over agreement, their reply was that their architect advised them that Yorkshire Water took ownership of the sewer pipe in 2011 and that before this it was a private pipe.

This response doesn't seem right though, my understanding is that a section 24 sewer pipe will have been publicly owned since 1937, and so will have been publicly owned in 2008 and that a build over agreement should have been obtained. Is this the case? And should building control have picked up on this while carrying out the regularisation?

I received the message through my solicitor on Thursday along with his suggestion that I take out an indemnity policy on the extension. I replied shortly after to say that the searches show it is a section 24 sewer and that the information from the sellers seemed incorrect and am yet to have a reply.

The estate agent is putting pressure on me to agree a completion date but until I know exactly what is happening about this build over agreement I'm not happy setting one, am I being unnecessarily cautious? My main worry is that the lack of build over agreement will come up again when I try to sell the house and could make it difficult to sell. Or very worse case scenario, Yorkshire Water find out about the extension and make us remove it.

If anyone can answer my questions or offer any advice I'd be so grateful, I feel as though I am going around in circles in my head, this is the first house I've bought so haven't much experience in it all. Thanks in advance!

Davesnave

The sewer should surely have been acknowledged in the original detailed planning for the build, and yes, if a Section 24, it was a public sewer when the build took place in 2008, so would have required a build-over agreement.

Firstly, I'd check on the council's web site to see what documentation exists for the build. If there is nothing in the planning to take account of the sewer, I'd be concerned. Usually, any structure which might place extra strain on a sewer has to include some form of bridging to take the weight at the points where the foundations cross it, and maybe the floors too, if they are solid.

I've only built over once and it required a lot of reinforced concrete, but much depends on factors like the depth of the sewer, the angle at which the building crosses it and the ground conditions.

It's worth mentioning that even holding a build-over agreement doesn't protect anyone from invasive 'surgery' on the building if that's deemed necessary by the water company, though these days they have ways of getting around most problems, rather than breaking-up people's floors!

silvercar

Downside of investigating to deeply is that you may not be able to take out an indemnity policy and no indemnity policy may mean no mortgage.

Difficult one, but given that there are now ways of correcting pipe work without digging up floorboards, I may be inclined to take out the indemnity and not worry.

Hoploz

Would the building inspector not have ensured the structure over the pipe was adequate? I mean, does it matter if there was no agreement letter by the water co, or just that it was done correctly. I'm sure you can get an indemnity to cover the permission not being sought.

But what concerns me is that they told you they had a completion certificate but had 'lost' it, and are therefore seeking regularisation. That doesn't make sense to me, as the council would have a copy record, if an original certificate had been issued. Good that they are getting it regularised, but someone is telling porkies here!

Old_Git

beware of house build over

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-33643315


http://www.u.tv/News/2015/07/24/Rat-invasion-forces-family-from-Carrick-home-41745
The house, which was built over a sewer without permission at Taylor's Avenue in Carrickfergus, is covered in rat droppings which have contaminated his family’s belongings, including that of his five-year-old daughter.

He has described his situation as “an absolute living hell”.

“It takes over every piece of your life,” he said.

“You have to deal with the rats - the same as every human being you have to go to work, make sure your family’s safe and it got to the stage that it took over all that.”

Paul and his partner Kim bought their dream home in Carrickfergus back in
2009.

The family had originally thought they might have had field mice when they discovered droppings, when their ordeal began.

Paul claims the weight of the house damaged the sewer which allowed rats to get through into the cavity walls, before climbing into the loft.

The family were forced to leave the house as Paul feared they could catch disease from the vermin which had infested the property.

In a statement NI Water said it is “aware of an unauthorised build over a sewer at this address”.

‘‘However, any damage caused to the sewer and subsequent repair costs, is the responsibility of the person who built the dwelling.

“The customer has since been in contact with NI Water and requested a cost to repair the sewer. NI Water, without prejudice, arranged for a quote. This quote is currently being finalised and will be with the customer shortly.”

The developer could not be contacted for comment.

Paul is pursuing the case through the courts but in the meantime, the bills are mounting, with the mortgage for the house still needing paid, the cost of renting out a different property for the family to live in as well as pest control which has totalled £2,000 so far.

Davesnave

Old_Git wrote: »

beware of house build over

Hmmm....

Hoploz's comment about the lack of a replacement completion cert occurred to me too, and that would worry me.

My build was before the days of completion certs, but I panicked in 2006 when I thought I ought to have had one. The local council told me the build had been properly signed-off, but as I wanted a cert, they'd issue me with one specially.

That was before the days of cuts too!:rotfl:

porgiegeorgie

Davesnave wrote: »

The sewer should surely have been acknowledged in the original detailed planning for the build

The extension was built under permitted development so didn't have full planning permission, just a building regulation application which was never signed off. I have searched the council's planning portal and can't find anything, the building regs application came up in the searches though (two for the same extension actually...)

silvercar wrote: »

Downside of investigating to deeply is that you may not be able to take out an indemnity policy and no indemnity policy may mean no mortgage.

This is what has put me off investigating too deeply myself and why I have been requesting an answer from them. From what I've read as soon as anyone makes Yorkshire Water aware then an indemnity policy is void, otherwise I would have phoned them myself.

Hoploz wrote: »

Would the building inspector not have ensured the structure over the pipe was adequate? I mean, does it matter if there was no agreement letter by the water co

But what concerns me is that they told you they had a completion certificate but had 'lost' it, and are therefore seeking regularisation. That doesn't make sense to me, as the council would have a copy record, if an original certificate had been issued. Good that they are getting it regularised, but someone is telling porkies here!

I actually don't know how the building inspector checks if the structure is adequate, whether they come and look at the hole in the ground while it is being built or if they just check the plans; if the former then I don't know how they could have done so as part of regularisation. I get what you mean though, if the pipe is protected it shouldn't matter, I'm just worried it might matter when trying to sell the house again, even if it is purely bureaucratical if it should have been done, it should have been done.

And yes, the lost completion certificate thing is something that occurred to me too, I thought that if a completion certificate had been issued there would be a record of it, the regularisation process suggests there wasn't one. My solicitor raised this point with them but I don't know whether it was ever answered.

I am worried that if someone isn't being quite truthful about this then it is possible there have been other untruths told too, for instance about not knowing the pipe was publicly owned in 2008. I am also confused about how the regularisation has been signed off without this agreement, I thought it would have been required if it is known to be a public sewer.


My main concern is just trying the sell the house on again without the build over agreement. The lack of build over agreement and the fact there is a section 24 sewer where the extension is came up quite clearly in my searches so presumably will in future searches too.

If I can ask (I have searched the internet for an answer already), has anyone here been in this situation before?

And is an indemnity really suitable if a build over agreement was required in 2008? I understand it is used a lot for extensions over pipes where the pipe was previously privately owned and is now public, but that isn't the case here.

Thanks to everyone who already replied.

Sedge123

Can't answer your question but I am reading with interest as we are in exactly the same position. Currently waiting to hear if vendors will pay for indemnity. Wondering whether we could or should offer to pay for it ourselves?

Davesnave

porgiegeorgie wrote: »

I actually don't know how the building inspector checks if the structure is adequate, whether they come and look at the hole in the ground while it is being built or if they just check the plans; if the former then I don't know how they could have done so as part of regularisation.

With us, the requirement was to get the plans amended to take account of the sewer by employing a structural engineer.

He drew-up specifications for two underground bridges at a depth of almost 2metres, one of them over 4metres long. Because of the amount of extra digging and disruption of the sub-soil, he also liased with the water company, which recommended that the concrete floors be reinforced and their weight then carried by the walls, putting no extra strain on the sewer below.

The building inspector visited when the foundations were pulled out and when the bridges had been completed. It's normal to see the inspector at foundation stage, as the ground conditions can only be fully assessed then. I can't remember if he came to see the reinforced floors being constructed.

There is no way anyone could have inspected our works after they had been completed on that build, but each inspector is different. On the works I'm doing now, the inspector has missed quite a few structural milestones and seems content that we won't try to cut corners. However, I do keep a digital photo record of every stage, just in case, which is easy and cheap to do nowadays.

porgiegeorgie

Davesnave wrote: »

With us, the requirement was to get the plans amended to take account of the sewer by employing a structural engineer.

The building inspector visited when the foundations were pulled out and when the bridges had been completed. It's normal to see the inspector at foundation stage, as the ground conditions can only be fully assessed then. I can't remember if he came to see the reinforced floors being constructed.

There is no way anyone could have inspected our works after they had been completed on that build.

Thanks for this. So if no inspector was present when they were building the extension (the lack of building regs completion could suggest this) then we just have their word that it was all done properly. Oh dear.

Chanes

You've had some really well thought out advice and much more informed than me but the only input I can give you is what you fear about the situation - I wouldn't touch a property with that issue, it isn't like a missing FENSA cert. it is a potential horror. So unless you can get the correct documentation you would lose a cautious buyer at the first hurdle, which reduces your market to sell on immediately.