Residents association query

Beavishep

Hi,

I co-own a flat with my mother, which we rent out,the building used to be an old hotel and there are 12 flats in the building, after we bought the flat we recieved a letter from a guy who said he was head of the residents association, we were never informed of this until after the sale was completed, this was however no issue, he stated that all flat owners paid a fee of £15 a month to pay for a cleaner to keep the building clean, change lightbulbs etc, again this was no issue, we agreed and have been paying the £15 for the last 2 years.
We recieved a letter a few weeks ago stating that he wished to have a vote on whether the interior of the building would be repainted and new carpets laid to all landings in the building at a cost of £323 per flat and he had instructed a company to lay new carpets at the top floor of the building(he owns the top 2 flats). Our last tennant left an awful mess and cost us £1200 to have damage rectified and the flat repainted for the new tennant, we also went for a look and decided that our landing was not really needing carpeted just now so we decided to vote no. he has now came back saying that 11 out of 12 voted yes (which i dont believe as i know 2 flats are empty and the guy next door to us works away for 6 months in the summer) and has asked for the money to be paid to the account by the 4th of september. My question is do we have to pay this money amd what can he do if we refuse? As far as i know he runs this association on his own as he tried to resign last christmas but nobody would take it on so he decided that he would carry on but he wanted paid to do so. Thanks

moneyistooshorttomention

I would say the onus is on this man to prove what way the voting went and it does rather sound like he is being less than truthful about it.

If he thinks its ok to tell porkies about that, then maybe he will feel its okay to do so about other matters as well.

So best to "set the scene" now and get him to prove the voting went as he said it went on this and ask him what figure has been set as a quorum for minimum number voting or do the votes have to be unanimous or what.

Second thought being that there should be things like minutes of meetings, notes as to how its all officially run generally (eg where the bank account for it is held/who the signatories to cheques are/etc)/accounts/rules.

G_M

Is this england/Wales?

"Residents Association"? Is this a Right To Manage Company? Who is the Freeholder? Does the Freeholder employ a Management Company?

If this 'Residents association' is managing the building:

* are they properly constituted?
* have you seen the articles of Association?
* Who are the named officers?
* You've been there 2 years - have you been invited to AGMs? Did you go?
* Have you seen minutes of the AGMs? Other meetings?
* Have you been given copies of annual accounts?
* What else does the RA do? Insurance? Maintenance? Communal electricity bills?
* Have you seen a list of all members?
* Have you seen a list of memers who voted 'yes'?

Before giving advice, we need more information.

Before taking any action you need more information.

Have you spoken to any other residents?

Finally, if you are now suddenly interested in the running of the building, isn't it about time you volunteered to be an officer (Chair? Secretary? Treasurer) of the RA yourself, especially as this guy has had enough?

moneyistooshorttomention

Yep...:T...reply from G_M gives some more of the precise details of what OP needs to be asking for.....whereas I was going for the general gist of "If it involves you, then you should have your fair say and, for that, you need all the relevant facts".

General motto of "If you have a Pay, then you should have a Say". Its called democracy/accountability.

DandelionPatrol

Beavishep wrote: »

My question is do we have to pay this money amd what can he do if we refuse?

If the residents' association has authority granted under your lease**, then yes you have to pay subject to the residents' association acting within the terms of its authority. And if it is not mentioned in the lease, then you can tell them to take a hike.

Things like carpeting the top floor only should not be at the general expense! That is to my mind taking the mick. If there is no mandate granted to the residents' association under the lease, then any decision must be on a unanimous basis or carried out solely at the expense of those in favour.

But the other side of this is that not cooperating on things like cleaning will ultimately devalue the property.

And a final thought. It is a residents' association. Not a leaseholders' association, which suggests that it has little real authority. Perhaps it is your tenants who should be members? Although it is probably better for you to remain members and to pay for only what you have to pay for and what you want to pay for.

edit:
** or under statute law. http://scotland.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/advice_topics/repairs_and_bad_conditions/repairs_and_maintenance_in_common_areas/property_managers_and_factors refers

moneyistooshorttomention

DandelionPatrol wrote: »

If there is no mandate granted to the residents' association under the lease, then any decision must be on a unanimous basis or carried out solely at the expense of those in favour.

.

That is the sentence that hit me in the eyes.

I think it could be useful to have any legal "chapter and verse" there is on this aspect (ie of decisions having to be unanimous - bar something in writing that says they don't have to be so). Its obviously a commonsense viewpoint. Does anyone know of such official "chapter and verse" that would state this general principle?

moneyistooshorttomention

Further on G_M's point re properly constituted Residents Associations. There are RA's that have websites out there and its possible to see what one should look like at, for instance:

http://www.kemnal-road.org.uk/Pages/KRA/KRAhome.html

to give one example.

This is for an unadopted road - and not a block of flats - but, as that is the set-up that applies in this case (ie its a Residents Association) then it will give the idea.

DandelionPatrol

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

DandelionPatrol wrote: »

If there is no mandate granted to the residents' association under the lease, then any decision must be on a unanimous basis or carried out solely at the expense of those in favour.

That is the sentence that hit me in the eyes.

I think it could be useful to have any legal "chapter and verse" there is on this aspect (ie of decisions having to be unanimous - bar something in writing that says they don't have to be so). Its obviously a commonsense viewpoint. Does anyone know of such official "chapter and verse" that would state this general principle?

There is no legal chapter and verse - it is logic applied in the absence of law. It is the presence of a law to create an obligation which matters. As legal obligations do not arise in the absence of a law imposing the obligation, the absence of a law to excuse people from a non-existent obligation is of no consequence.

Unless there is a law that residents are bound by the decisions of a residents' association, then there is no law to be enforced in a court to make residents pay up according to the decisions of a residents' association. Only in the case that the residents' association is mandated by the lease, does that law exist.

There is a slight wrinkle if a non legally mandated residents' association agree that majority decisions will be binding on all - but even then, such a decision would effectively have to be unanimous to be effective - because anyone would be free to drop out.

Beavishep

G_M wrote: »

Is this england/Wales?

"Residents Association"? Is this a Right To Manage Company? Who is the Freeholder? Does the Freeholder employ a Management Company?

If this 'Residents association' is managing the building:

* are they properly constituted?
* have you seen the articles of Association?
* Who are the named officers?
* You've been there 2 years - have you been invited to AGMs? Did you go?
* Have you seen minutes of the AGMs? Other meetings?
* Have you been given copies of annual accounts?
* What else does the RA do? Insurance? Maintenance? Communal electricity bills?
* Have you seen a list of all members?
* Have you seen a list of memers who voted 'yes'?

Before giving advice, we need more information.

Before taking any action you need more information.

Have you spoken to any other residents?

Finally, if you are now suddenly interested in the running of the building, isn't it about time you volunteered to be an officer (Chair? Secretary? Treasurer) of the RA yourself, especially as this guy has had enough?

Answer to your questions
1- dont know
2- no
3- dont know
4- no
5- no
6- no
7- we insure our own flat, our tennant insures their contents, the guy asks for a copy of everybodys insurance every november, he organises the building maintenance and cleaning. Actually dont know about the communal electricity bill.
8- no
9- no.
We havent had time to speak to other residents as he set the date to have votes back as the 24th of july but he sent a letter stating that as it was a resounding yes he was closing the vote a week early.
As for suddenly being interested in running the building, we are not and i did not mention that, i am only interested in finding out whether or not it is right to be bullied into paying for something we neither want or need and also what my rights are as to whether i have to pay or not.
He seems the kind of person that will spit the dummy and take his toys home if people dont agree with him. I have tried phoning him to discuss it but he doesnt answer or respond to my voice mails.
We are in scotland but the guy lives in london.
Thanks

DandelionPatrol

Beavishep wrote: »

As for suddenly being interested in running the building, we are not and i did not mention that, i am only interested in finding out whether or not it is right to be bullied into paying for something we neither want or need and also what my rights are as to whether i have to pay or not.

Straightforward. Write to him and ask him the legal basis for making a claim on you. Come back here with the answer.

But to be doubly sure, check your own lease to see whether that gives the residents' association [ie him] any rights.

As far as I can see, it is bullying - but probably out of ignorance rather than malice. The leading light of the residents' association is doing a generally constructive thing, but he is quite naive as to the powers he has. He can only act on unanimity [if powers are not mandated under the lease], but he believes he can act on a majority, even if the resident's association is not mandated by the lease.

G_M

Beavishep wrote: »

Answer to your questions
1- dont know -
2- no
3- dont know
4- no
5- no
6- no
7- we insure our own flat, our tennant insures their contents, the guy asks for a copy of everybodys insurance every november, he organises the building maintenance and cleaning. Actually dont know about the communal electricity bill.
8- no
9- no.
We havent had time to speak to other residents as he set the date to have votes back as the 24th of july but he sent a letter stating that as it was a resounding yes he was closing the vote a week early.
As for suddenly being interested in running the building, we are not and i did not mention that, i am only interested in finding out whether or not it is right to be bullied into paying for something we neither want or need and also what my rights are as to whether i have to pay or not.
He seems the kind of person that will spit the dummy and take his toys home if people dont agree with him. I have tried phoning him to discuss it but he doesnt answer or respond to my voice mails.
We are in scotland but the guy lives in london.
Thanks

Well it seems you need to find out the answers to all these questions.

Only then can you get reliable advice as to "do we have to pay this money amd what can he do if we refuse?"

As this is Scotland, you need advice from someone familiar with Scottish property law. As the Scots like to do stuff differently it is not the same as it would be in Eng/Wales. However, you'll still need answers to the questions posed.

But you might be best advised not to rock the boat. If he stops 'managing' the property, you might end up with no management.

Imagine for example if no one checks that each flat owner has taken out insurance. The building burns down. The fact that your insurer will pay to rebuild your flat will be of no use if the flat below yours is uninsured!

(so another thing to consider is organising a single proper block building policy, with each flat conribuing. Whether the RA is the correct organisation to do this depends again on the legal constitution of the RA.