Has the politico-economic situation in the EU changed your stance?

BenjaG

The idea that we would not have had a housing bubble in the USA, UK, Ireland, Spain, Cyprus, ..., a subprime mortgage crisis in the USA (with exporters like China, Japan and Germany writing off the lion share of their re-invested profits) and a sovereign debt crisis in e.g. the UK and Greece and a banking crisis in places as diverse as the USA, UK, Iceland etc is nuts. Blaming the EU or the Euro for it is plain vicious.


If the UK were to leave the EU, England's influential elites would be likely to lobby Westminster to protect their industries again, as they did in the 1970s. They are already lining Ukip's wallets.


Fighting for progress in Europe requires more engagement by UK politicians and business leaders, to form a wealthier and healthier Europe: http://counter-offensive.blogspot.com/2015/06/more-europe-not-brexit.html

Graham_Devon

ggb1979 wrote: »

I for one would be thrilled to be part of a union that skilfully ousted a looney left wing government and is replacing it with something sustainable and fiscally sound.

Well that's rather interesting.

I wonder if theres anyone who was definately going to vote no, but now after seeing what the EU can do to governments and whole swathes of voters, would now consider voting yes in the hope that politics and the ideals thereof, as you say, are "implemented" on nations?

I think your "skillfully" descriptive is a bit wide of the mark though!

mwpt

CLAPTON wrote: »

the alternatives facing us aren't between war and destroying the opportunities of the Southern Europe's youth (for out dated ideological reasons).

I'd be curious to investigate this narrative a little more. In what sense has the EU been responsible for this? Is it purely the currency issue? Do we have counter examples to show balance (eg. Eastern Europe).

I get very suspicious of emotive statements. They're always more likely to be driven by, well, emotion, rather than pure facts.

And I bring up the question, yet again, as an immigrant to the UK myself, who came here for job opportunities, why, if life is so bad in these countries (supposed high youth unemployment), do people not simply move to the jobs? A starving person won't accept it meekly. Europe is a small enough place. My opinion is that life can't be that bad if they're not willing to take a short bus, train, flight, to somewhere with jobs.

wotsthat

CLAPTON wrote: »

the alternatives facing us aren't between war and destroying the opportunities of the Southern Europe's youth (for out dated ideological reasons).

You're right; they're not the alternatives facing us. That's why I didn't present them as such.

mwpt

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Well that's rather interesting.

I wonder if theres anyone who was definately going to vote no, but now after seeing what the EU can do to governments and whole swathes of voters, would now consider voting yes in the hope that politics and the ideals thereof, as you say, are "implemented" on nations?

I think your "skillfully" descriptive is a bit wide of the mark though!

Oh yes, there will be plenty of people who have got sucked in to one side of this whole narrative or another. Humans love a good story, conspiracy, plot, invective. Plenty of literature showing how we pick our side first, then shape the facts we are given to suit that view. We're very very unwilling to change our minds about stuff. Common psychology problem.

Sp they'll have picked their side and shaping the narrative to suit that.

My opinion is that both narratives are almost complete !!!!!!!! (lazy Greeks, empire building Germans). There are nuances and shades and sub plots and things going on, but it in the end, it's just nation scale mechanisms doing what they do. Greece will survive, Greek people are not that bad off even now. Greece can vote to leave this nasty institution but they don't want to.

I still think the benefits of the EU far outweigh any imagined authoritarian impact on our day to day lives.

But to answer your question, many people, like yourself, will be feeling stifled by this imagined threat to their democratic "rights" and will now certainly be voting against EU.

Graham_Devon

mwpt wrote: »

But to answer your question, many people, like yourself, will be feeling stifled by this imagined threat to their democratic "rights" and will now certainly be voting against EU.

Theres nothing imaginative about it.

It's purely fact.

If this deal, somehow, goes through, Greece will have EU technocrats enforced on them overseeing what they can and cannot do, what they can and cannot spend, how they work, what their shops sell and when they sell them.

Junker the other day stated that the harsher deal offered was "payback" for letting Greek people take part in a referendum.

Shauble (sp) stated Greece had to now wake up to reality - that they had voted for the wrong government.

The Slavakian or Finnish minister (can't remember which off the top of my head) quickly removed his tweets when his advisors suggested they were a bit foolish, claiming that Greeks were threatening the rest of the EU with their "uprising".

Hollande now calls for a European parliament to avoid political issues like this in the future.

You may find all of this perfectly acceptable and I respect your opinion and right to do so. But it doesn't mean everyone else is imagining this stuff.

Infact, my post you quoted, before informing me I was imagining things was a direct result of someone stating they are all for the EU if they can remove left leaning governments.

Edit: and proof should you ever require it. It's just been announced that the EC has formally proposed that that the EFSM is to be used for emergency funds and that all 28 members will contribute. Basically, our guarentee is now null and void.gl

mwpt

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Theres nothing imaginative about it.

It's purely fact.

If this deal, somehow, goes through, Greece will have EU technocrats enforced on them overseeing what they can and cannot do, what they can and cannot spend, how they work, what their shops sell and when they sell them.

Junker the other day stated that the harsher deal offered was "payback" for letting Greek people take part in a referendum.

Shauble (sp) stated Greece had to now wake up to reality - that they had voted for the wrong government.

The Slavakian or Finnish minister (can't remember which off the top of my head) quickly removed his tweets when his advisors suggested they were a bit foolish, claiming that Greeks were threatening the rest of the EU with their "uprising".

Hollande now calls for a European parliament to avoid political issues like this in the future.

You may find all of this perfectly acceptable and I respect your opinion and right to do so. But it doesn't mean everyone else is imagining this stuff.

Most of that stuff you'll be reading with your existing narrative in mind and framing it appropriately. But even so, the point is, I don't believe these things are, in themselves, necessarily bad.

The EU is working for me at an individual level. If you want to worry and blame everything on the institution, go ahead.

Graham_Devon

mwpt wrote: »

Most of that stuff you'll be reading with your existing narrative in mind and framing it appropriately.

So how do you frame "The harsher deal is payback for the referendum" appropriately, while avoiding your own existing narrative?

It would be quite interesting to find how on earth you can describe those words as anything but retaliation for allowing democracy.

You should just stick with "The EU is working for me personally". I accept that and that's a very fair point, but wrapping it up with all this other stuff about people "imagining things" is silly.

wotsthat

Graham_Devon wrote: »

So how do you frame "The harsher deal is payback for the referendum" appropriately, while avoiding your own existing narrative?

You (royal) don't need to avoid your narrative but just realise you have one.

Taleb argues that the limitations of the human brain resulted in our species’ tendency to squeeze unrelated facts and events into cause-and-effect equations and then convert them into easily understandable narratives. These stories, Taleb wrote, shield humanity from the true randomness of the world, the chaos, of human experience, and, to some extent, the unnerving element of luck that plays into all successes and failures…

Out,_Vile_Jelly

I've always described myself as "just about pro-EU", but open to debate.

There's an awful lot of background reading to even begin to understand the complex web of influence the EU has on so many aspects of daily life; eg how our food is grown and labelled on the shelves.

Sadly, these complexities are reduced to "more EU madness as Brussels bureaucrats ban bendy bananas!!" by the tabloid idiots or "disagree with the EU? You must be a rabid, racist, swivel-eyed UKIP voting degenerate!" by the left.