Negotiating Price

telfordwhite

Nicki wrote: »

I really think that a key reason why buying and selling a house is so stressful, is because people get entrenched in this kind of unreasonableness. Everyone is out to get a house as cheaply as they can, and most don't care much about the tactics they use to do so. No one plays it straight down the line in terms of disclosing relevant facts, whether that's their true position vis a vis chain and mortgage requirements, what the survey has disclosed, or when they can or want to move. What is wrong with a cards on table approach and a fair and honest negotiation where everyone can walk away with their heads held high at the end of the day feeling they behaved well and honourably?

Nicki this is so true. Many of us it would seem have been deceived and lied to in the house selling process. It makes us much more wary and tetchy toward anyone we feel is trying to take advantage. It also gives us cause to doubt the purchasers reliability to complete.

I agree with you there is some risk of the vendor pulling out if the OP fails to negotiate tactfully.

barnaby-bear

Doozergirl wrote: »

Hi Nicky

"The Electrical installations appear to be the original wiring etc and there is inadequate number of powerpoints for modern day living - it also seems likely that the circuitary earthing won't comply with current regulations and it is possible that the house will need fully rewiring!!!!!!"

Obviously the number of plug sockets is a desire, not a need and surveyors will point out things like this too, but the rest of that does sound like the surveyor has some real concerns. They are not qualified electricians and therefore will always be non-commital to some degree, but they are generally talking about an aged, 30 odd year old wiring system which doesn't appear to have been upgraded at any point, not just something that doesn't comply with latest regs.

I'm an engineer and with respect I'd have absolutely no concerns regarding a 1970s house, the OP seems to not even know what earthing is. IT's pretty obvious what the fuse board and sockets look like when you go round a house, 1970s wiring was PVC and had stuff light earthing circuits (1960s didn't), a new consumer unit is easier to reset but is hardly going to be any safer than old-style fuses, it might be slightly more likely to protect the property but shove your wet hand in a socket and the consumer unit is no better. Most of the people on here don't seem to know a multi-meter or an ohm from a banana. A new socket costs a few pounds to add in. I wouldn't expect any 1970s house to have had a full rewire, 1960s I'd be more interested because of the lighting circuit earthing and PVC coating legislation changes... Things like sockets and radiators are really obvious. A thermostatic valve costs £15. If you asked me to knock £5500 off for such standard things with a 1970s house when it was obviously a 1970s house then I'd probably tell you no thanks. To be honest I'd see it as trying it on as those sound so much like standard survey clauses that I'd be inclined to fish around the other offers and if I dropped in price I'd rather go with someone else so you'd lose survey fees for trying it on... It was obvious it wasn't a new boiler and how many sockets there were and you made an offer on that basis is how I'd see it.

yellowkylie

Hello people, thought I would give you an update but first I wanna get thing so of my chest.

I posted on here to ask for advice and I can say that, that is exactly what I got, so thank you to everyone for your imput so far. However I kinda feel that some of you think I am a panicking foolish Fftb who wants to try it on with the vendor and that simply is not the case.

I maninly wanted to know what other people thougt and had done in similar situations. I now know, since having a specialist report on the electrics and gas central heating that what was being said in the original survey was anything but bog standard covering their backs jargon. Like some people were suggesting.

Yes you are absolutely right (who ever said it) I haven't got a bloody clue about electrics and central heating. So if I have made reference to work needed to be done in earlier posts I apologise !!! But I was simply tring to gauge opinion on people about the situation not the actual mechanics of it all.

I am not going to go all hell balzing into the EA in the morning (although all the amo I now have, does kinda give me a bit of ahead start.) and demand a reduction. I am simply not that kinda person and have even been feeling bad for the vendor by what has been uncovered. The specialist report I now have will be used to negotiate amicably couryeously and professionally, i really don't know why people think I am some kinda mad ftb buyer on a mission bu hey!!

Nicki no offense but I really don't believe I am being unreasonable at all. I am just looking out for myself . Buying a house is one of the biggest financial commitments I will ever make, so if you think I am just gunna accept everything that the vendor and EA has told me, you are very wrong.

Who said I was after a cheap sale!! I just want a house that reflects the condition of the house and is safe for my young family. The fact that I am posting on here asking questions and that fact I have now had specialists investigating my concerns, would suggest that I am not after a cheap sale at all, but that I am just a sensible ftb. I am being honest and fair. I think it is terrible that I am being considered the unreasonable one!! from where I am standing it is not the buyer trying to get a cheap sale but the vendor trying to exploit the buyer.

I think certain people on here have been stereotyping me as a dishonest ftb with no integrity or negotiation skills. I am just a weary, intelligent, ftbwho doesn't commit to big financial transactions lightly

yellowkylie

Now for those of you who felt I was panicking here come the good stuff!!


I won't write all of the report but here are the bits that matter. First of all these are the results of the gas text.

A gas safety inspection caused the supply to the boiler and water heater to be formally decalred as DANGEROUS. As as result of this diagnosis the gas has now been cut off.

The flues from the boilers (water heater as well) are so close together that one could draw in fumes from the other. There were serious signs of "Cow-Boy" attempts to mitigate the results, which the boiler itself had at sometime detected and shut itself off.

It goes on and on and on in this vain!! Am i still panicking?

Estimated cost of new boiler, removal of old equipment and jetter flush £2580.00 plus vat yeah!!

Now onto the Electrics, again I won't write it all but here goes.

The property, which appears to be some 30 years old, has not been rewired in the last 30 years, whilst the outward impression seems like a professional job, there have been some concerning DIY additions.

The following requires URGENT ATTENTION (don't know what they all mean but they sound excting enought, if you like that kinda thing!)

1. The bathroom has a pendant light fitting.
2. There was no equipotential bonding of bathroom pipework
3. Light pendants wereold and worn
4. Lighting circuits were unearted (thats my fav one!)
5. No equipotential bonding to sinks and taps and pipes
6. No sevice bonds were apparent to gas and or water of the correct size
7. The insatllation is a a failure and requires full rewir
8. Numerous low level unprotected cables are evident
9. Fuse box old, obsolete and over crowded
10. Black conducters were in places of red.

The list goes on on on on on.

Anyway to cut a long story short a total rewire would cost £2495.00 plus vat hallaloyah!!

So I think this kinda puts adifferent slant on things, given the fact that the house now has no central heating or gas in the property.




I

CB1979_2

lol - nice they agree for specialists to go in and you get their gas cut off!!!

good on you for doing that, I must admit when my survey came up with the "usual" - electrics blah blah blah, i didn't take any notice of it, it may come to bite me on the !!!! at a later date, but i'm planning on completely renovating my place in a year or 2 anyway.

good on you for following through with this, to be honest I'd negotiate on that and simply point out to them that any other buyer will also come up with these problems.

out of interest though, do those quotes take into account making good the rooms/floors, etc etc?

cos you could quite easily say to them "look the neccessary work is gonna cost £5k plus VAT, decorating of ALL rooms is gonna cost another £5k, but I'm prepared to take the hit on the decorating/plastering, and we end up sharing the total cost 50/50"

Woby_Tide

3 grand each for a new boiler and a rewire is a bit high personally butif you think they may play ball then go for it. That said if they've lost the gas supply will they now get some work done in rectifying it and leave you a 'working' supply and then not budge on the price of that work as much?

yellowkylie

well we certainly won't buy a house with no gas and I can't see anyone else buying either

Nicki

Hi Beth

Sorry if you took offense at anything I posted. I didn't think I had posted anything personally obnoxious though. Your first post asked for advice about whether it was reasonable to negotiate and how the vendor was likely to respond, and I gave you what my response (as a vendor) would be in the circumstances you originally posted.

I also, as you will see if you check back, advised you to get more and better info before going in to re-negotiate, which you have now done. That evidence does clearly show that there is a more serious problem than the original wording of the survey suggested, and so it will help you to make a case to renegotiate.

One thing to bear in mind, however, is that whilst you may succeed in having the price reduced with this evidence, your mortgage company may require you to actually do the work before it releases the last amount of money to you (ie it may keep back a retention of £5,000) Will you be able to afford to buy the property without this money, and pay for the work which needs doing up front, so that you can then reclaim it from the mortgage company.

I hope it does work out for you, but as you say this is the biggest financial commitment that you will ever make, and as a result of all of the extra investigations you have done, you have managed to frontload a lot of costs. Most people buying a house are better able to afford to do this kind of major work after they have been paying off the mortgage for a few years, rather than right at the point where they've had to find the money for solicitors, surveys, removals, stamp duty, etc. Clearly if the property was actually dangerous that is a different matter, and that certainly sounds the case with the gas.

Sounds like you now have some serious thinking to do as to whether to go ahead or not.

yellowkylie

Thought it was time for an update, how time flys!

We let the vendor see all relevant parts of the survey which stated essential repair and need for further investigation. We also showed them the two specialist reports that had been carried out and the results of which had been deemed dangerous and quotes for work needed to be carried out.

Copies were also sent to our solicitor who drafted a letter to vendors solicitor to ask for reduction in price by way of any allowance.

Vendor initially said he would knock a grand off and carry out no work. We said we would not proceed nor would our lender lend us the money if they knew the house was dangerous, or would any other buyer foot the bill or expect to pay just a grand under the asking price and they should wait to hear from their solicitors.

Couple of weeks went by and the Vendor offered us £3k of the asking price. We though very long and hard about this but decided that we wouldnt be able to carry all of the work out that needed to make the house safe for our family and we would also be the once having to carry out the work, when we didnt feel it was our place to fix it. So we suggested that if they wanted to do no work on the property prior to the sale we would expect atleast 5k of the asking price.

On Tuesday I got a call from Estate Agents stating Vendor agreed to reduction of 5k. Confirmed this with solicitors to ensure it wasn't a dream and everyone is happy! (I think)

Anyone who had read this so far, might have got the impression that I shouldnt have expected a reduction of 5k, but if you've done everything above board, youve been legit and your not trying it on with the vendor, i think there is no reason to fork out money yourself for a house that would require a lot of work as soon as you move in, unless you've already had an offer significantly under the asking price anyway.

My advice would be, dont be cheeky but be realistic, it worked for me, against the opinion poll of this thread.

:j

Doozergirl

Well done. You've not got a bargain, you've not taken advantage, you've renegotiated on major points raised in a survey. Your offer was 'subject to survey' contrary to many opinions.

You did the right thing and took advantage of no-one. I'm glad to hear it's working out for you, not that there isn't a lot of work to be done! I hope everything runs smoothly from here and that you are very happy in your new home.