Unsure which direction to go

solentbob

Hi,

I was hoping someone could advise on the following. I've read the Newbie FAQ and I'm unsure which direction I should go with the PCN I received today.

A vehicle I own arrived at a private car park 15-minutes prior to the driver joining another vehicle on a weekday.. The driver knew it was a "call & pay" car park. So called the number on the sign. It said that it would take around 2-minutes to take the payment details and register with them. The debit card number was entered through the driver's mobile phone key pad.

The vehicle registration was entered via voice recognition. The automated system was having difficulty differentiating between various letters of the registration being spoken. After the second attempt of giving the registration number, the caller joined the vehicle for their onward journey.

The caller believed the system had recognised the number correctly and moved to the next stage of entering the car park location number. After entering the number the automated voice told the caller that "the car park was closed and to find another place to park".

After closing the call, the Driver picked up some text messages. Two messages asked them to confirm the correct registration number or reply with the correct registration number. The Driver replied with the correct registration number. They then received a text message reply confirming the registration number but also stating that "This SMS is not a Booking Confirmation". Then, with the same time stamp as last reply was another text message from another sender (it was from PhoneandPay rather than a phone number like the previous messages), saying "Thank you, your vehicle details have been updated".

Looking back at the picture of the sign on the car park, the driver feels that in hindsight it is clear that it is only Permit Holders on weekdays before 6pm. While studying the small print on the photo of the sign, it appears the driver has agreed "to pay the standard fee of £100 per day if they didn't have a valid permit on display".

I've read the Newbies FAQ.

I'm still within the POPLA appeal period.

* There's nobody to complain to. The land is leased by a company that has no use of the car park in daylight hours.

* The PPC is part of BPA.

* I had a look at POFA 2012 Para 9 ... the PPC didn't send me any evidence of the event but did make the note, "We have photographic evidence of this incident".

Apologies in advance if I've missed something in the Newbie FAQ or the links it suggests, but the stress of this PCN has me a bit here, there and everywhere.

I do have pictures of the PCN, Sign and text message screen shots, but sadly as a newbie I'm not allowed to post them.

Thanks,


Bob

HO87

As this is clearly your first involvement with a private PCN then, for the moment, the best thing you can do is to fix yourself a tea/coffee/hot chocolate/beer/wine etc - whichever is your favoured tipple then sit down and chill. There really is nothing to stress about.

Once you are de-stressed then take some time to re-read the Newbies thread. I know it is a little dense and wordy but we are limited in what we can do with the required format of the forum. It contains all of the information you need to understand what you are dealing with.

It would help significantly if you could let us know which company this is - especially as it seems they are trying to play the contractual charge card here rather than the more common breach of contract.

As for posting photos etc I suggest that you host them on Photobucket or Tinypic (other hosting sites are available) and post the link back as plain text omitting the standard http://www. bit (something like s118.0798100/asb6y) - one of the regulars can then do the necessary and post the full links for you. The same applies to any website you want to refer to.

Chill!

solentbob

Thanks for the reply HO87.

The PCC is Civil Enforcement Ltd.

I'm not sure if they're playing a regular route on taking card details. The way I see it was, they take your card details and mobile phone and VRN to register with them. Then you need to make a second call with the Car Park ID to confirm you're 'stay' with them.

I've read the newbie forum this morning, this afternoon and this evening, clicking and reading various links but I keep getting lost on this. I can't appear to find a comparison.

I'm sure it's going to cost me more in my own time getting this cleared rather than just paying the reduced 14-day fee ... but it's the principal.

Another attempt at images:

dub dub dub dot solent-studios.co.uk/clients/ppc/01.jpg

dub dub dub dot solent-studios.co.uk/clients/ppc/02.png

dub dub dub dot solent-studios.co.uk/clients/ppc/03.png

dub dub dub dot solent-studios.co.uk/clients/ppc/04.jpg

HO87

Links:

PCN
SMS 1
SMS 2
Sign

Don't worry. You are making the same error that we have all made at some point and that is to think that your case is unique because you haven't found one that exactly matches it.

The bottom line is that you are falling for the one element that PPC's rely upon to obtain their money - that because you haven't exactly followed their directions you must therefore have done something wrong. The question you need to ask yourself to reset that pattern of thinking is "I may have made a mistake but what right do they have that enables them to demand money for something that will have cost them nothing and where they don't even own the land?

Don't for a moment think that you might have to pay.

Guys_Dad

Are you saying that the land is leased to a company from the landowner and the leasing company in turn has engaged a PPC?

Quite important as you would appeal eventually to the independent adjudicator that the client had no authority from the landowner to appoint a PPC

HO87

Guys_Dad wrote: »

Are you saying that the land is leased to a company from the landowner and the leasing company in turn has engaged a PPC?

Quite important as you would appeal eventually to the independent adjudicator that the client had no authority from the landowner to appoint a PPC

Not too sure if the question was directed at me but the one thing we can be sure of is that CEL do not own the land.

Can't obviously speak for anything the OP has said.

Herzlos

The number you had to phone is a Glasgow area code (0141), where is the car park?

If it's in Scotland, then I *think* you can safely ignore them because there's no keeper liability, though if you gave a name when trying to pay that might make things harder. I don't believe they'd have any way to get a name from a card number which for the DPA they shouldn't be accessing for anything other than payment processing.

Did your account get debited for the initial parking charge? The £1/hour one

Guys_Dad

HO87 wrote: »

Not too sure if the question was directed at me but the one thing we can be sure of is that CEL do not own the land.

Can't obviously speak for anything the OP has said.

NO - it was as a result of the OP writing

I'm still within the POPLA appeal period.

* There's nobody to complain to. The land is leased by a company that has no use of the car park in daylight hours.

* The PPC is part of BPA.

Northlakes

Don't forget the important question. WAS IT SCOTLAND?

ColliesCarer

If the incident was in Scotland or you live in Scotland then see Herzlos's post

Otherwise ........

You mention in your post ....the PCN I received today ...........I'm still within the POPLA appeal period.

I'm assuming you haven't yet appealed the PCN to CEL given you've only just received it.

If so you have to do that first before you could appeal to POPLA.

When you read the NEWBIES FAQ did you see the template 1st appeal letter. That is the base of what you need. It contains most of the legal arguments needed to challenge this charge.
Others such as Guys-dad can advise if anything extra is needed in the 1st appeal to cover the landowner - tenant - ppc chain involved in your situation or whether it's better to wait until POPLA to cover that .
Do not reveal the driver - the appeal is from the Keeper.

Take your time reading it - it can be a bit overwhelming at first - and do so a few times - it will become clearer.

Also when you say "There's nobody to complain to - The land is leased by a company that has no use of the car park in daylight hours" -
I presume you mean you can't complain to a shop etc but who is the landowner and who is the leasing company - do you know?

It's good that the PPC is a member of the BPA - you stand an excellent chance of getting this cancelled by appealing :

first to the PPC - using the template letter mentioned above

then (when they reject your appeal - which is expected btw as the aim of the first appeal is to get a POPLA code) to POPLA .

Their NtK fails to comply with a lot of para 9 - not just the photographic evidence part - and that appeal point is covered in the template letter. No need to go into details at this point save that for POPLA.

Also don't worry about their photographic evidence for now - if they have any they will have to provide it to POPLA.

Also save your own pictures of the Sign for the POPLA stage too as you may need them then to challenge any wrong signs CEL supply in evidence to POPLA.

solentbob

Thanks for the responses, they're much appreciated.

The incident wasn't in Scotland but in Southern England.

The car park is part of a night club open Wed-Sun from 10pm to 4am - The driver wasn't visiting the club.

I've managed to find the first appeal letter and have printed and posted this morning. As a newbie in a bit of an agitated state from this, I must have missed the connection taking an information overload onboard.

Thank you again for your time and help.

Rob