Premier Park PCN

Carrie-Ann

Hi guys, Last year I successfully appealed a PCN from Premier Park in Exeter (with your valued assistance) My neighbour has now been issued with one on 25/04/15. The reason given for his is "Obstructive Parking. The vehicle was parked on private property in contravention of the site parking restrictions as displayed on the signage or permit"
I wrote the standard letter to PP for him advising that he appealed against the notice on the grounds that he was not obstructing anyone, he had not parked in front of the sign which said "Do not Park Here", and the usual there was no GPEOL
they have replied quoting Parking Eye v Beavis. My neighbour wants to appeal to POPLA. What arguments do we use please? Are the GPEOL ones dead in the water?
I should say that this happened on private (Exeter City Council) owned land where there are (never enough) parking spaces for us residents and he was displaying the council issued pass in his car.
I have photos to prove that the only vehicle which might be obstructed from entering or exiting the car park would be an 18 wheeler articulated lorry. we don't see many of those on our little residential estate!!
Any advice would be most welcome

soolin

I've moved this to a more appropriate board for responses.

Carrie-Ann

sorry I did not realise that I had posted it in the wrong place. It's a minefield but I am learning so thank you

ColliesCarer

Carrie-Ann wrote: »

My neighbour has now been issued with one on 25/04/15. The reason given for his is "Obstructive Parking. The vehicle was parked on private property in contravention of the site parking restrictions as displayed on the signage or permit"

they have replied quoting Parking Eye v Beavis. My neighbour wants to appeal to POPLA.
What arguments do we use please? Are the GPEOL ones dead in the water?

Things are a bit up in the air re: the Beavis case (he has now been given leave to appeal to the Supreme Court ) and it's potential impact on Not a GPEOL.

But your neighbour's case is different (obstructive parking in a permit holder car park owned by the council) and could probably be distinguished from the commercial set up at the car park in Beavis - others more legally minded will probably be able to assist with how to word that.

Also by the time this POPLA appeal needs to be submitted things may have become clearer.

So for now your neighbour (with your help) should draft a POPLA containing all the usual relevant legal arguments - inc not a GPEOL.

From the dates given it looks like the appeal to the PPC was sent in response to a windscreen notice so possibly the driver was also revealed?

If so the POPLA appeal would be from the driver and he would not of course be able to include a "non-compliant NtK - therefore no keeper liability" argument.
If the driver wasn't revealed and the appeal was sent as keeper then the POPLA should be from the keeper too.

Post up your draft for help refining it.

nigelbb

It's a great pity that your neighbour appealed the windscreen ticket & thus admitted to being the driver. As the driver was revealed then you cannot use the cast iron winning appeal point that this is not relevant land as defined by POFA 2012 therefore the keeper cannot be liable for any unpaid parking charge.

BTW this sounds an odd setup where the parking place & permit is provided by the council but enforcement is by a private company.

Carrie-Ann

BTW this sounds an odd setup where the parking place & permit is provided by the council but enforcement is by a private company.[/QUOTE]
thanks nigelbb. tell me about it! This has been the set up since long before I moved here last year.
The "estate" is blocks of mixed sheltered and general housing and Premier Park have been using it as a prime source of income. The people who live here are generally elderly and not of a mind to go through appeal process and so usually just pay up.
This Parking Eye v Beavis makes things a little more tricky but we shall see.......

Carrie-Ann

thanks ColliesCarer. I am just drafting the POPLA letter and will post this evening as it will need some amendments no doubt!

Guys_Dad

nigelbb wrote: »

.

BTW this sounds an odd setup where the parking place & permit is provided by the council but enforcement is by a private company.

Not so unusual, Nigel. Your bête noire, Central Milton Keynes, has the council parking patrolled by Da Vinci. Saw them today inspecting the tickets.

nigelbb

Guys_Dad wrote: »

Not so unusual, Nigel. Your bête noire, Central Milton Keynes, has the council parking patrolled by Da Vinci. Saw them today inspecting the tickets.

Central Milton Keynes is not permit parking. The OP's case is especially odd as the council provides the permit so they haven't outsourced that bit of the operation to a PPC. The PPC then enforces under contract law. Surely Vinci don't enforce under contract law in Central Milton Keynes? If they did the RK could never be liable as it's not relevant land. Much of the parking in CMK is on street so it has to be proper Penalty Charge Notices rather than fake PCN from a PPC.

ColliesCarer

Carrie-Ann wrote: »

thanks nigelbb. tell me about it! This has been the set up since long before I moved here last year.
The "estate" is blocks of mixed sheltered and general housing and Premier Park have been using it as a prime source of income. The people who live here are generally elderly and not of a mind to go through appeal process and so usually just pay up.
This Parking Eye v Beavis makes things a little more tricky but we shall see.......

This preying on elderly and/or vulnerable people makes me so angry :mad:

I know you probably have your hands full right now helping your neighbour with the POPLA but please complain to the council and your local MP about these unenforceable charges when you get time.

As the land is council owned you could also get information from the council via FOI requests to try to find out about the contract (though they'll probably refuse claiming commercial sensitivity but no harm asking), whether the council have assigned rights to Premier enabling them to pursue payment through the courts in their own name (you can make life very uncomfortable for them), who gets the money from the charges, how many charges have been issued etc etc

Also is there a residents association you could complain to?
If not why not consider starting one - there's strength in numbers and help available to set one up (including a potential start up grant of £500)

http://www.exeter.gov.uk/lgnl/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=7985&p=0

p.s. If you hear of anyone else getting a windscreen ticket, they should wait for the postal notice to keeper to arrive, appeal as keeper and not reveal the driver because as Nigelbb has pointed out they would have a cast iron case for winning a POPLA appeal so pay nothing - zilch - nada

p.p.s. It's worth checking the amount the charge is for and comparing with the amounts of real penalties the council charge in car parks they actually run - for inclusion in your complaints and in a not a GPEOL point for POPLA

Ralph-y

The BBC ran two programs recently on private parking ...

[EMAIL="watchdog@bbc.co.uk"]Watchdog@bbc.co.uk[/EMAIL]

https://www.facebook.com/DontGetDoneGetDom


they often do follow ups so it might be worth a letter/email

Patrick Troy who runs the BPA also asked for emails to improve the BPA so perhaps an email to him might be nice
[EMAIL="Patrick.t@britishparking.co.uk"]Patrick.t@britishparking.co.uk[/EMAIL]

to let them know your views .........

Even consider the local papers Dail Mail as they may well run a story for you.

The government has just finished a consultation period , so your MP might be interested.