Okofen pellet heating

zeupater

captainhindsight wrote: »

Technology has moved on massively since then, even in the last 12 months biomass boilers in the UK have moved on with pretty much every boiler now being auto cleaning, their are now 100s of installers around the UK and 1000s of trained engineers where as when this article was written there would have been very few. Some of the biggest names in the biomass industry didn't even exist when this article was written. Your statement just demonstrates how little you know about the industry.

Hi

Does this mean that you would expect both a reduction in equipment prices and installation costs from the industry as technology & manufacturing economies of scale improve, UK competition builds and margin expectations are squeezed ??

HTH
Z

captainhindsight_2

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

Does this mean that you would expect both a reduction in equipment prices and installation costs from the industry as technology & manufacturing economies of scale improve, UK competition builds and margin expectations are squeezed ??

HTH
Z

This is already happening, two years ago you wouldn't be able to buy a 25kw auto cleaning biomass boiler for less than 8k now those same boilers and new models from the same manufactures and different manufactures new to the UK you can get for £4-5k. As more and more engineers become qualified and experienced the labour market also becomes more competitive and maybe be not go as low as say a gas engineer but close. Also the main driver for traditionally high prices is foreign manufactures waiting for a company in the UK to approach them to become a distributer and thy distributer sets the prices. Where as now manufactures are cutting out the middle men and selling direct via the merchants . Prices are already starting to come down, and as the market becomes more mature and competitive it can only go one way. Prices come down and quality increases

zeupater

captainhindsight wrote: »

This is already happening, two years ago you wouldn't be able to buy a 25kw auto cleaning biomass boiler for less than 8k now those same boilers and new models from the same manufactures and different manufactures new to the UK you can get for £4-5k. As more and more engineers become qualified and experienced the labour market also becomes more competitive and maybe be not go as low as say a gas engineer but close. Also the main driver for traditionally high prices is foreign manufactures waiting for a company in the UK to approach them to become a distributer and thy distributer sets the prices. Where as now manufactures are cutting out the middle men and selling direct via the merchants . Prices are already starting to come down, and as the market becomes more mature and competitive it can only go one way. Prices come down and quality increases

Hi

What about installation efficiencies & installer margins ... is it just the case that equipment price reductions are being soaked up by the installers, therefore increasing margins ?? ....

We looked into biomass boilers about 10 years ago after a visit to the Royal Welsh show but simply ended up deciding that the economics were all wrong and just replaced the (mains) gas boiler - it was a 'no-brainer' decision. In the intervening years I've noticed no real difference in prices then to what's currently reported on threads such as this, despite considerable variations in currency exchange rates. At the time the fully installed market price, and therefore supplier margins, followed the availability of grant funding resulting in wild fluctuations in quoted priced, so my expectation is that the same is the case now with prices being calculated according to a combination of the RHI level set at the time and the relative cost of displaced off-grid fuels (Oil/LPG), obviously restricting market development ...

HTH
Z

captainhindsight_2

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

What about installation efficiencies & installer margins ... is it just the case that equipment price reductions are being soaked up by the installers, therefore increasing margins ?? ....

We looked into biomass boilers about 10 years ago after a visit to the Royal Welsh show but simply ended up deciding that the economics were all wrong and just replaced the (mains) gas boiler - it was a 'no-brainer' decision. In the intervening years I've noticed no real difference in prices then to what's currently reported on threads such as this, despite considerable variations in currency exchange rates. At the time the fully installed market price, and therefore supplier margins, followed the availability of grant funding resulting in wild fluctuations in quoted priced, so my expectation is that the same is the case now with prices being calculated according to a combination of the RHI level set at the time and the relative cost of displaced off-grid fuels (Oil/LPG), obviously restricting market development ...

HTH
Z

Prices are significantly lower than they were 10 years ago, there is more choice on the market, more competition etc etc.

in 2009 there were 63 certified biomass installers in the whole uk, today there are 379 and 12732 certified domestic installs with over half of them being in the last 12 months.

If you know what you were quoted for and how much, I can demonstrate that you can get it much cheaper on today's market.

zeupater

captainhindsight wrote: »

Prices are significantly lower than they were 10 years ago, there is more choice on the market, more competition etc etc.

in 2009 there were 63 certified biomass installers in the whole uk, today there are 379 and 12732 certified domestic installs with over half of them being in the last 12 months.

If you know what you were quoted for and how much, I can demonstrate that you can get it much cheaper on today's market.

Hi

Okay, just checked the spread-sheet from the time and similar spec quotes (incl storage/feed etc) came in in an astounding range of £14000 to £30000(ouch!) for ~25kW nominal heating ... what do you want to compare against, the price after a new tranche of grant funding was made available, or when it had run out ?? ... not surprisingly, just to check, I had quotes from the same supplier for the same equipment just about 8 months apart - the difference almost exactly equalled the grant value ...

At the time, local pellet prices were ~£200/tonne compared to mains gas tiered at 4.3p/2.2p per kWh with a 1077kWh/Qtr breakpoint and the decision was (eventually - ) taken to replace an aging (32kW) floor standing gas boiler with a wall mounted 30kW condensing unit for under £2k ....

With mains gas available it didn't make sense then and it still doesn't even with RHI - unless you have a massive heat demand, even then it's disputable .... but then again, you obviously don't agree because you've yet to address & rectify incorrect information posted elsewhere on the subject .... https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5251699

HTH
Z

captainhindsight_2

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

Okay, just checked the spread-sheet from the time and similar spec quotes (incl storage/feed etc) came in in an astounding range of £14000 to £30000(ouch!) for ~25kW nominal heating ... what do you want to compare against, the price after a new tranche of grant funding was made available, or when it had run out ?? ... not surprisingly, just to check, I had quotes from the same supplier for the same equipment just about 8 months apart - the difference almost exactly equalled the grant value ...

At the time, local pellet prices were ~£200/tonne compared to mains gas tiered at 4.3p/2.2p per kWh with a 1077kWh/Qtr breakpoint and the decision was (eventually - ) taken to replace an aging (32kW) floor standing gas boiler with a wall mounted 30kW condensing unit for under £2k ....

With mains gas available it didn't make sense then and it still doesn't even with RHI - unless you have a massive heat demand, even then it's disputable .... but then again, you obviously don't agree because you've yet to address & rectify incorrect information posted elsewhere on the subject .... https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5251699

HTH
Z

What boilers were they quoting for? Okofen only?

What grant money ran out for biomass boilers?

There is no grant for biomass boilers, there was the RHPP which if you had a quote that equalled that it would have been a bargain!!!

I've now answered the question on the other thread.

zeupater

captainhindsight wrote: »

What boilers were they quoting for? Okofen only?

What grant money ran out for biomass boilers?

There is no grant for biomass boilers, there was the RHPP which if you had a quote that equalled that it would have been a bargain!!!

I've now answered the question on the other thread.

Hi

I don't know how long you've been in the business, but both RHI & RHPP are pretty new schemes and therefore are irrelevant when considering pricing at the time (8-10 years ago). The government used to run various grant funding schemes to support/develop/encourage the uptake of renewables technologies and as any new tranche of funding became available demand for products increased, so did the prices ... that's pretty much why the FiT & RHI schemes were considered a better approach, being more likely to provide benefit to the customer & develop competition, not simply line a limited number of installer's pockets ...

Regarding the answer on the other thread, if you could provide support for the stated 'facts' in terms of provision of a set of working calculations based on an average property with mains gas available, then we may all be able to follow the industry line and help them correct their assumptions - I've even supplied all of the necessary variables .... in the meantime, I'll just consider that the technology, even allowing for RHI payment, to currently be overpriced against a mains gas solution in anything other than high energy requirement installations and that even then any comparison would likely be dubious unless taking finance, depreciation and maintenance into account ...

HTH
Z

zeupater

zeupater wrote: »

... The government used to run various grant funding schemes to support/develop/encourage the uptake of renewables technologies and as any new tranche of funding became available demand for products increased, so did the prices ... that's pretty much why the FiT & RHI schemes were considered a better approach, being more likely to provide benefit to the customer & develop competition, not simply line a limited number of installer's pockets ...

Interesting(?) report regarding the above which I came across a while back .... https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/48160/2578-lcb-programme-2006-11-final-report.pdf

HTH
Z

captainhindsight_2

The thing many people don't realise is the extra costs attached for a company to be able to carry out work under any grant or incentive scheme.

To be a part of any grant scheme a company is subject to extra regulation, certification and trainings costs amongst other things, thus an increase in prices to the end user.

Why do people find this so hard to understand?

zeupater

captainhindsight wrote: »

The thing many people don't realise is the extra costs attached for a company to be able to carry out work under any grant or incentive scheme.

To be a part of any grant scheme a company is subject to extra regulation, certification and trainings costs amongst other things, thus an increase in prices to the end user.

Why do people find this so hard to understand?

Hi

I'd understand that if the installer drove any part of the grant process and therefore attracted additional administrational costs, however, at the time almost everything was customer driven ... the entire application process at the time is described on page 38 ... no input, no cost, prices adjusted, £thousands pocketed.

Even if there was an 'accredited list' registration process for the installers to buy-into at the time it wouldn't justify the need to charge ~£1500 extra when a grant of £1500 was available, then remove it again when funding ran-out ..... recovery of costs such as this would normally be treated as an element of the general overhead and apportioned over the business, or particular business stream ....

HTH
Z