Cannot locate Serps fund

baz8755

During the nineties I had a personal pension with The Pearl which was opted out of Serps.

Also during this period my employer started a pension scheme which they paid into on my behalf.

At some point they opted me back in and in 2006 I transferred my pension away from Pearl/NPI/Phoenix to a SIPP. However the paperwork shows my Serps pot was empty and I only got my personal contributions back (less a massive £18k penalty).

Recently my colleagues had remarked that they had £50k in their Serps pot from the same era.

So my question is what happened to my Serps and is there a way to track it or find out if any mis-selling has occurred.

kidmugsy

baz8755 wrote: »

So my question is what happened to my Serps

and a very reasonable question too. When you contracted out, what were you told about the National Insurance rebates from the government? Were they going to be directed to your personal pension, or were they going to be added to the pension your employer set up for you?

baz8755 wrote: »

is there a way to ... find out if any mis-selling has occurred.

Start off by telling us who sold you what.

baz8755 wrote: »

However the paperwork shows my Serps pot was empty and I only got my personal contributions back (less a massive £18k penalty)..

I don't understand that. Are you saying you transferred a personal pension but instead of the accumulated capital being transferred only your contributions were?

And what was this £18k penalty? Was it an MVR (market value reduction) a.k.a. market value adjustment (MVA)?

It would be easier for us if you quoted exact wordings.

baz8755

As far as I was aware the Serps were contracted out and then back in by the Pearl. I am almost certain my employers pension did nothing to Serps.

The £18K was a reduction made by pearl for transferring out of their with profits fund which was not making anything so I am guessing they just withheld the profits element.

When I transferred my pension in 2006 from pearl to my sipp provider they showed 3 sets of figures

Non protected rights £xxxK
Pre 1997 Protected rights £0
Post 1997 Protected rights £0

dunstonh

So my question is what happened to my Serps and is there a way to track it or find out if any mis-selling has occurred.

Ask Phoenix.

I thought Pearl auto-contracted people back in around 2002- 2003.

Also during this period my employer started a pension scheme which they paid into on my behalf.

Were you contracted out with that scheme?

less a massive £18k penalty

Old Pearl plans actually front loaded some of the return and the penalty is actually taking some of that back if you dont stay until the end. Not saying that staying with them was right/wrong. However, the penalty is often misunderstood.

Was it an MVR

Pearl didnt have MVRs.

baz8755

I think I am going to have to chase both Phoenix and HSBC tomorrow, but as I have already asked them both about Serps and they have said they have no funds in my name and my Sipp definitely has not received any protected rights I am not sure if there is any or where it would have gone.

As I have said, I am pretty sure that HSBC never contracted me out of Serps. Which given that my colleagues that only used the company scheme were contracted out and back in by HSBC have a protected rights pot of £50K is leaving me feeling a little light in the pocket.

The only other twist in the tale is that the employer pension did eventually become a stakeholder with HSBC and is now no longer being paid into as we have been taken over by a company that uses a different provider. This is what has sparked my interest as I am moving the funds from the HSBC stakeholder into my SIPP.

I just get the feeling something has slipped between the gaps somewhere or if not then some very bad financial advice/choices have been made.

agarnett

baz8755, you say it was with Pearl in the 90s but do you remember which of the following was the original named insurance company on your policy?:

[SIZE=-2]Alba Life[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Alba Life Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Allianz Cornhill[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Allianz Cornhill Insurance plc[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Beacon Insurance Company Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Black Sea and Baltic General Insurance Company Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Blackburn Assurance Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Blackburn Philanthropic Burial Society[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Bradford Insurance Company Limited - endowments[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Bradford Insurance Company Limited - pensions[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Bristol West of England and South Wales Friendly Collecting Society[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Britannia Life Association of Scotland[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Britannia Life Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Britannic[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Britannic Assurance Company Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Britannic Assurance plc[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Britannic Money Investment Services Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Britannic Retirement Solutions Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Britannic Unit Linked Assurance Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]British Legal Life Assurance Company Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Century Group[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Century Life[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Century Life plc[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]City of Birmingham Friendly Society[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]City of Edinburgh Life Assurance Company Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Colonial Life Insurance Company (UK)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Consumers Life Insurance Company Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Credit & Commerce Life Assurance Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Crescent Life[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Crown Assurance Company[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Crusader Insurance Company Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Crusader Insurance plc[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Ebor Phoenix Assurance Company Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Equico International Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Evergreen Retirement Assurance Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Foreman & Staff Mutual Benefit Society[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]FS Assurance Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Globe Insurance Company Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Growth & Secured Life Assurance Society Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Hiscox Insurance Company Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Lamont Life Assurance Company[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Langham Life Assurance Company Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]LAS Investment Assurance[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]LAS Pensions Management[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Law Union & Rock Insurance Company Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Life Association of Scotland Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Liverpool London & Globe Insurance Company Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Lloyds Life Assurance[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]London Assurance[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]London Life[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]London Life Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]London Life Linked Assurances Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Loyal Endeavour Friendly Society[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Mutual Life Assurance[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]National Australia Life Company Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]National Employers Life Assurance Company Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]National Friendly Collecting Society[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]National Provident Life Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]NEL Britannia Assurance Company[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]NPI and National Provident Life[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]NPI Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Old Mutual Life Assurance Company Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Oxford Life Assurance Company Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Pearl Assurance[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Pearl Assurance (Unit Funds) Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Pearl Assurance (Unit Linked Pensions) Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Pearl Assurance Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Pearl Assurance plc[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]PFM Assurance Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Phoenix & London Assurance Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Phoenix Assurance Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Phoenix Assurance plc[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Phoenix Life & Pensions Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Pioneer Life Assurance Company[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Pioneer Mutual Insurance Company Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Preston Philanthropic[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Prolific Life & Pensions Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Property Growth Assurance Company[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Property Growth Pensions and Annuities Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Prosperity Financial Services Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Prosperity Life Assurance[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Providence Capitol Life Assurance Company Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Provincial Life Assurance (Pensions) Company Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Provincial Life Assurance Company Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Provincial Pensions Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Royal & Sun Alliance[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Royal & Sun Alliance Life & Pensions Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Royal & Sun Alliance Linked Insurances Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Royal Co-operative Benefit Society[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Royal Co-operative Collecting Society[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Royal Heritage Life Assurance Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Royal Insurance (1968 Fund) Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Royal Insurance Company Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Royal Life (Unit Linked Assurances) Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Royal Life (Unit Linked Pension Funds) Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Royal Life Insurance Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Scottish Mutual[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Scottish Mutual Assurance Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Scottish Mutual Assurance plc[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Scottish Mutual Assurance Society[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Scottish Provident[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Scottish Provident Assurance Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Scottish Provident Institution[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Scottish Provident Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Scottish Provident Managed Pension Funds Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Scottish Temperance and General Assurance Company Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Scottish Temperance Life Assurance Society[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Sentinel Life plc[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Shield Assurance Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Stamford Mutual Insurance Company Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Sun Alliance and London Assurance Company Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Sun Alliance Linked Life Insurance Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Sun Alliance Pensions Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Swiss Life (UK)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Swiss Life (UK) plc[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Swiss Pioneer Life plc[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]UK Life Assurance Company Limited[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]Unit Assurance Company[/SIZE]

Sorry they seem stacked higher than old cars in a junk yard, but that's pretty much how these supposed reputable household names ended up. Maybe the one I have marked and linked mid-list above is the right one, or maybe their fascinating "timeline" tool gives you a better clue! Actually this other more traditional underground type map is perhaps (!) easier to follow. Makes me think of Tommy Cooper's antics - bottle glass bottle glass glass bottle - Phoenix Pearl Resolution Pearl Resolution Liberty Phoenix - I think the intention is much the same - they expect you to pay your Money, laugh and then sod off :mad:

No SERPS policy was started before April 1987, and many of those were backdated from 1988 and 1989. From what I have read from others here on MSE, a £50K pot seems quite typical for someone who has remained contracted out for most of the period since, and where the only contributions to the policy were the annual HMRC SERPS NI rebates. However, as you can see from the above list, your policy ended up in part of a massive UK industry knackers yard. It was and probably remains a stinking place where with-profits were deliberately driven into the buffers and successive leeches have attempted to suck them dry whilst continuing to kid literally millions of policyholders that with-profits was a no hoper.

Your policy sounds like it had a massive clawback of initial commission where some agent or adviser got instantly fat for just turning up and performing an industry typical wham bam thank you m'am - did you ever see the seller again after it was sold to you?

The policy should however have been left completely alone if it was a SERPS only policy. But in that case I am not sure why you'd have suffered any penalty on transfer to the SIPP. Yes possible an MVR but I find it hard to believe that could have been much more than £800 let alone £18,000. If you had become contracted in for a while then the SERPS policy would just continue without further contributions until such time as you might move to another job and perhaps have become contracted out again. If you did nothing, HMRC would just pay rebated SERPS NI contributions into it for any years you were contracted out. You could ask HMRC what contributions they made in which years and to whom - they probably have the policy number on file. I am not sure how fast you can get this info from them (if indeed you can - I would be annoyed if I couldn't).

I believe there was an option to have the HMRC SERPS NI rebates paid into a personal pension which you yourself also paid into. Perhaps that's what you had?

I myself had the rotten and exasperating experience of a "misunderstood" initial commission clawback costing me almost half the fund on one policy in the early 90s when I simply changed jobs and joined a new scheme which happened to be contracted in. At the time when I asked for a transfer value (I never did transfer it but lost half the fund regardless due to the commission clawback), I thought I'd lost the equivalent of about a month's salary. Although I made a fuss, I didn't pursue it as far as I now know I should have, because I can see it probably cost me £20K or £30K in lost transfer value now I am near retirement. However, the clawback I suffered was on a with-profits group personal pension which I and my employer were contributing to monthly before I changed jobs, and not on the SERPS policy which was set up to run alongside the GPP. The GPP became what the industry called "paid-up" and basically the only people who got paid up were the salesmen who had been paid commission up front on the ridiculous basis that the policies would run until retirement age even though they were specific to the one current employer. In practice the employer often wheeled in the "IFA" to sell the policies, and what they told you was that you could take it with you if you changed employer (but not what hoops needed to be jumped through if the new employer had their own ideas about which policy they preferred to pay into). What the sellers never declared was that if you changed jobs and simply stopped paying into one of these things, the commission clawback would be instantly triggered and taken from your accrued pension fund contributions.

These were by modern standards of course total mis-sales, but thousands of insurance companies, their salesforces and agents got away with it. And they have continued in many cases to get away with many other unsavoury things with with-profits (WP) funds since. And you'll find almost no financial advisers on MSE making even the slightest squeak about it. Yet I expect any worth their salt were in the thick of the selling of WP at one time or other. You'll probably find it hard to get one to volunteer the fact.

That sort of up front and totally unrealistic commission remuneration was finally outlawed quite recently, except no politician or regulator has ever had the guts to claw it back from those who never earned it but spent it because "that was the industry norm".

baz8755

Thanks for the reply, the £18k clawback (or whatever it was) was not on the Serps pot as that seems to have disappeared somewhere ATM. It was on the pot where my personally paid in contributions went.

The more I think about it the more I realise that my so called Pearl personal adviser was making a good few quid off my back then as he would often get me to sign new contracts assuring me it was a better deal (the details of which are lost in the mists of time).

With hindsight the 80's and 90's were dangerous times as I managed to get a low cost endowment which is now going to fall short as well as lining the pockets of Pearl

dunstonh

I just get the feeling something has slipped between the gaps somewhere or if not then some very bad financial advice/choices have been made.

Have you asked the adviser that gave you the advice? They would have copies of the original scheme plan details, values etc.

With hindsight the 80's and 90's were dangerous times as I managed to get a low cost endowment which is now going to fall short as well as lining the pockets of Pearl

Although pearl have a mortgage endowment promise which will cover some/all of that shortfall.

baz8755

Unfortunately the advisor is long gone

agarnett

Have you anything at all with a policy number? Give Phoenix a call anyway and see if you can identify yourself in their back books.

If the only name you've ever known had been Pearl, perhaps the Peterborough Contact details are your first stop ...

Meantime I also see you NPI mentioned as one of the provider names you seem to have had to endure for a short period ... whilst you may only find it mildly interesting (I find it quite interesting only because I know what tricks this sort of Company get up to with their eye on your funds!) this November 2011 document may have been relevant to you: http://www.phoenixlife.co.uk/~/media/Files/T/The-Phoenix-Life/pdf/content/Customer_guide_Mar12_transfer.pdf

It is also interesting that they seem to have hidden the technical detail of what they were actually doing behind the scenes with the WP fund containing the NPI policies in another (npi.co.uk) website page which, surprise surprise, no longer exists.

baz8755

The plot thickens, I called Phoenix(Pearl) and they now claim that the pension I supposedly moved out had a Serps element but they cannot tell me how much. The can tell me the value of my personal pension which is the amount I was given when I transferred out. They are going to investigate and send me a letter in 10 days.

I also called DWP who confirmed that Pearl were in receipt of my Serps for 13 years.

I suppose I'll just have to wait and see.