Enduring Power of Attorney (again)

Biggles

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

Presumably one could get the copies certified after Sunday?

Yes, all they're certifying is that it's a true copy of the original. That could be done at any time.

Savvy_Sue

Errata wrote: »

For info: The CofE has said today that registration of the LPA will cost £150, £30 more than the current registration fee for an EPA. It also stressed that although the LPA document was much longer than the EPA one, it covered many issues that had previously had to be added in by whoever drew up the EPA.

I thought people were talking £1000! I'm less panicked by the deadline than I was ...

Errata wrote: »

Furthermore, the CofP had worked with many people in drafting the document to ensure it was as user friendly as possible. Of course, it's in lawyers interests to paint the document as complicated and thus in need of a lawyers input for which lawyers can charge ££££££. Cynical point of view, but........business is business.

cynical? You? :rotfl:Realist, more like ...

Biggles

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

I thought people were talking £1000! I'm less panicked by the deadline than I was ...

People were talking potential sums of up to £1,000 because the new set of forms could well require the involvement of a solicitor.

However, I have now seen the new forms and - they're not too bad! So, if you're running out of time to complete an EPA, all may not be lost.

Well, I'll qualify that by saying that the form for a Property and Affairs Lasting Attorney is not too bad, anyway, I haven't yet been through the Personal Welfare one.

Yes, it's 26 pages, but much of the information is the same as given in the present EPA, though in a different, much more detailed format. The main difference seems to be 'certification' by someone independent who has known the donor personally and has talked to them about the LPA (not in the presence of the attorney(s)) to see that s/he understands what s/he is doing, so this is an extra safeguard against abuse.

As we know, it has be be registered before it can be used, for a fee of £150. But (IMHO) the new P&A LPA can be completed without the aid of a solicitor just as easily as the existing EPA. The PW LPA may well be a different matter.

What I will say is this: it will be far better to get the new form and complete it than to make an EPA late and date it before 1 Oct and spend years wondering whether you'll be found out!

All the new forms are here:-
http://www.guardianship.gov.uk/formsdocuments/forms.htm

Maybe there should be a new thread on LPAs or a 'sticky' or something, but I don't know about such things.

Errata

From today's Guardian, quoted in full so people don't miss it and hope it clarifies further -

Response

Ignore the scare tactics - these changes will help the vulnerable



[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Those who can't make their own decisions have new rights over their personal welfare[/FONT]

[FONT=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]Sally Plumb
Friday September 28, 2007
The Guardian

[/FONT]
Your article about the new lasting power of attorney (LPA) doesn't give the full picture (Changes to powers of attorney keep solicitors busy, September 24). It stated that "solicitors will be working flat out this week to draw up powers of attorney for sick or elderly people before a more complex replacement costing up to 10 times as much comes into force next Monday."
The implication is that the LPA is a more expensive version of the current enduring power of attorney (EPA). This is not the case.


The new Mental Capacity Act is an excellent piece of legislation that, after a lengthy consultation with service users and carers - who appear to fully support the changes - has succeeded in providing a legal structure for decision-making where people lack the mental capacity to make particular decisions for themselves. It promotes the independence and autonomy of people such as adults with learning disabilities or dementia where they are able to make some or all of their own decisions, and also protects them when they cannot.
You quote a solicitor as arguing that "everyone should have [an EPA] in case an accident, for example, left them in a coma". This omits to mention that the act creates a clear framework so that decisions can be made - for example, by family, friends or professionals - where there are no extra powers such as an LPA (or, for that matter, an EPA).
The article failed to mention the important difference between the LPA and the EPA. EPAs only apply to property and finances, but LPAs can also apply to decisions about personal welfare - including healthcare and consent to medical treatment - for people who lack capacity. Currently, such decisions can be made only by professionals or others in their "best interests". From next Monday, with an LPA anyone will be able to nominate who they would want to make those decisions.
It appears that scare tactics are being used to panic people into going to a solicitor this week. The article states: "Lawyers say that while they can draw up an EPA for around £100 or £150, the cost of setting up and registering an LPA can easily reach £1,000. The rush is on because the simpler and cheaper EPA will still be effective after October 1 ... but no new EPAs will be possible after that date."
Most of the extra cost will be charges made by solicitors. It is not even necessary to use a solicitor to make an LPA or EPA - the forms are user-friendly and have guidance notes attached. There is also plenty of extra advice and information available on the Public Guardianship Office website. It is to be hoped that solicitors' fees will, given the increasing competition, reduce to reflect current rates. The only unavoidable costs will be for registration of the LPA, without which they cannot be used. But the fees are £150 for each part - property and affairs; and healthcare and welfare. The cost of registering an EPA is £120 - not an astronomical difference!
Ultimately, the important point about this legislation is what it allows us to do, rather than what solicitors might charge us for it. · Sally Plumb is the principal of the Mental Health Training Group

harryhound

This came up on a Radio 4 Q & A session and the answer was talk to a solicitor.

If you hold land in joint names you hold it on "a trust for sale".

This means that husband and wife are already trustees for each other over the value of the family home.

EPA makes perfect sense to me, my mum had one.

HOWEVER is there a legal problem if the major financial asset is the house, owned as tenants in common, when it comes to the still capable spouse needing to sell the house? Where is the second trustee who needs to sign the contract/conveyance?

Harry.

Stephen_Leak

Very clever use of figures. £150 for each part = £300. £300 - £120 = £180. Not my idea of a "not astronomical difference".

Errata

Stephen_Leak wrote: »

Very clever use of figures. £150 for each part = £300. £300 - £120 = £180. Not my idea of a "not astronomical difference".

The EPA covers finances only, the LPA covers finances and welfare. Not an astronomical amount to ensure someone who is unable to make their own decisions has the full protection of the law. Surely this is something we would want for everyone?

harryhound

harryhound wrote: »

This came up on a Radio 4 Q & A session and the answer was talk to a solicitor.

If you hold land in joint names you hold it on "a trust for sale".

This means that husband and wife are already trustees for each other over the value of the family home.

EPA makes perfect sense to me, my mum had one.

HOWEVER is there a legal problem if the major financial asset is the house, owned as tenants in common, when it comes to the still capable spouse needing to sell the house? Where is the second trustee who needs to sign the contract/conveyance?

Harry.

Now that we have all signed sealed and delivered my EPA, I notice that the point about conflict of role between my wife acting as my attorney and also trustee of the "trust for sale" of the "tenancy in common" under which we own our home, is highlighted in point 4 of part A on the front page of the EPA form (Ah well half a loaf is better than no bread).

Harry.

PS The point about the change from EPA to LPA on Monday 01oct07 is not the difference between 120 and 150 GBP. It is the difference between taking out a FREE insurance policy now for the problem that you hope, and probably will, never happen; and PAYING 150 GBP up front just in case it ever does. Power of attorney is a last resort, using it is a pain in the neck; just try explaining to the Saturday staff how it works. The best deals are often not available to attorneys and you get into a double bind if you do not live at the same address as the person whom you represent as an attorney,

phoebe03cat

This can still be done online at LawDepot.co.uk . Very easy and instant. Just get it witnessed straight away.£10

Biggles

phoebe03cat wrote: »

This can still be done online at LawDepot.co.uk . Very easy and instant. Just get it witnessed straight away.£10

Or, of course, completely free at http://www.guardianship.gov.uk/downloads/Make_An_EPA.Web.pdf