Gentle leader or Dogmatic?

Oddjob

Sheramber - I do try and turn her away or make her sit and block her but she fights me all the time to get to the dog, her feet are splaying out all over the place and she's snarling and growling trying to get the lead out of my hand so that she can go to it. I just cannot get her attention at all, she's not quite as bad if they are at a distance but still won't focus on me.
I can get her to do anything at home, she'll look at me, sit, stay and everything no need for treats or bribes. A lot of the time she does things automatically, sits in the hall for me to put her lead on and off, waits until I've got the door open and I'm out and tell her she can come before she moves, Waits until I give her a signal before she dives into her dinner, but she goes into devil dog mode when she's out and sees a dog.


Elsien - Yes patience of a saint would definitely help!! She will do the 'look at me's', sits, wait etc. when she's out and with other distractions, but not dogs!!


I got the Mekuti harness, she did walk better although her walking isn't that bad anyway, but it made things no better at controlling the behaviour with dogs around. In fact, if anything it was worse, we got all tangled up with the two leads, well one fastened in two places. I couldn't do what they said and fasten the one that goes through the chest to the shoulder through the nearside shoulder ring as it is a Halti lead and although it goes through the middle ring, it won't go through the smaller shoulder one., she kept ducking under it and when she was fighting me to get to a dog, her feet go everywhere and then she went into a panic as she was tangled up. I also found it pulled the harness round and it was rubbing her armpit on the opposite side to me. I ended up just fastening one lead to the front ring and one to the back, it still seems to bring the harness round to rub her armpit though. I don't think its because its too loose, if I tightened it anymore it would be too tight. Do all the harnesses that you clip the lead onto the front ring do that? I do want a harness for her but I'm wondering if this is the right one for us especially as it doesn't have the padding that some harnesses do.

Oddjob

Thank you by the way for all your replies, I do appreciate anything that might help. At my wits end at the moment. I don't enjoy taking her out at all at the moment.

krlyr

I don't feed the lead through the nearside ring (didn't realise it even recommended it actually!), and don't have any problems with it pulling the harness around or the lead tangling on the leads. I'd wonder if it was the wrong size, perhaps?

Did you read the CARE site pawsies linked earlier? It sounds like your girl is going way over her threshold. She won't be able to concentrate at that point, so don't even attempt to get her attention, get her to sit, etc. - you need to lower her stress levels, so move away from the trigger (you want to move ASAP, ideally before she's even spotted the trigger, to your safe distance) and once at safely on the other side of her threshold line, you can then start with training the alternative behaviour.

You want to move out of the lunging, snarling whirlwind stage immediately, when you're at the calmer-but-still-not-focusing stage you're nearly there, but need to go just that touch further so she does then start to focus on you. If you can't feasibly achieve this on walks, then go for the immediate evacuation stage, and speak to a local trainer or behaviourist to arrange some training sessions where you can practice with stooge dogs in controlled environments, having the trainer watch and set the safe distance to work at.

Oddjob

A friend of mine knows a trainer who is brilliant with dogs, he takes on dogs that are usually out of control and turns them round and sells them then to take another - usually rescues. He is taking her out for a couple of hours tomorrow to assess her, then hopefully help me with her. Fingers crossed he thinks he can do something with her.

Oddjob

krlyr wrote: »

I don't feed the lead through the nearside ring (didn't realise it even recommended it actually!), and don't have any problems with it pulling the harness around or the lead tangling on the leads. I'd wonder if it was the wrong size, perhaps?

Did you read the CARE site pawsies linked earlier? It sounds like your girl is going way over her threshold. She won't be able to concentrate at that point, so don't even attempt to get her attention, get her to sit, etc. - you need to lower her stress levels, so move away from the trigger (you want to move ASAP, ideally before she's even spotted the trigger, to your safe distance) and once at safely on the other side of her threshold line, you can then start with training the alternative behaviour.

You want to move out of the lunging, snarling whirlwind stage immediately, when you're at the calmer-but-still-not-focusing stage you're nearly there, but need to go just that touch further so she does then start to focus on you. If you can't feasibly achieve this on walks, then go for the immediate evacuation stage, and speak to a local trainer or behaviourist to arrange some training sessions where you can practice with stooge dogs in controlled environments, having the trainer watch and set the safe distance to work at.

No, it is the right size, I got a large, she is 31" so should be ok, I adjusted it so I can get two fingers under but its not loose. She tangles the leads when her legs are flying all over the place. She puts her leg up to bring my hand down and tries to grab hold of the lead to get it out of my hand. That's when she gets tangled up, she also gets her head over the top of it then panics because she's tangled in it.


I started to read the link but then got bogged down with work. I shall go back to it.

sheramber

Oddjob wrote: »

No, it is the right size, I got a large, she is 31" so should be ok, I adjusted it so I can get two fingers under but its not loose. She tangles the leads when her legs are flying all over the place. She puts her leg up to bring my hand down and tries to grab hold of the lead to get it out of my hand. That's when she gets tangled up, she also gets her head over the top of it then panics because she's tangled in it.


I started to read the link but then got bogged down with work. I shall go back to it.

Then you are far too close to the other dog.

If you were terrified of spiders and somebody put one down in front of you would you be able to remain calm and look away from the 'monster'?

I tis difficult to walk where you wonlt come into close contact with other dogs but try and find quiet places, quiet times. If you get caught out hide behind cars, vans up someone's drive if necessary.

I loved walking my reactive dog in the rain as nobody else was out.

Keep walking purposefully. Don't panick and hesitate, she will feel any tension through the lead and already be alert.

Think in terms of you are protecting her from a danger that she perceives and helping her to cope rather than that you are correcting a behaviour.

Everytime she reacts the behaviour becomes more ingrained.



Think of it like a game of snales and ladders- everytime you succeed you go up a ladder, everytime you fail you go down a snake.

krlyr

Oddjob wrote: »

A friend of mine knows a trainer who is brilliant with dogs, he takes on dogs that are usually out of control and turns them round and sells them then to take another - usually rescues. He is taking her out for a couple of hours tomorrow to assess her, then hopefully help me with her. Fingers crossed he thinks he can do something with her.

Just make sure you understand what training methods he uses before letting him take your dog (ideally, go with him to watch too). Someone who punishes, or floods (exposes to their trigger in excess) a reactive dog may appear to get quick results, but is usually just suppressing the behaviour which can lead to more problems down the line.

Oddjob

Sheramber - no we are not close at all, she does it from many many yards away. The trainer was surprised by how far dogs were away when she started.
krlyr - I did stay with them in the end, she wasn't happy being taken off, so we walked together for a while, we had her on two leads, me one side him the other, then when she had settled, I passed my lead over to him and dropped back. I went to sit on a bench where she could still see me. We had taken her to a quieter part where there were not so many dogs. He is a firm, but gentle trainer, certainly not cruel, he said it was not nervous aggression but dominance. My friend has known the family over 30 years so knows his methods, I wouldn't have arranged it otherwise.
He did get her a lot better, we were able to walk past another dog on the other side of the road several times which she would never have done before and that was with just me on my own.

krlyr

The mention of dominance would worry me personally
http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die

What did he actually do to achieve the change?

sheramber

Oddjob wrote: »

Sheramber - no we are not close at all, she does it from many many yards away. The trainer was surprised by how far dogs were away when she started.

It doesn't matter how far away you are.It could be the other side of a football pitch. if she she react it is too close.

krlyr - I did stay with them in the end, she wasn't happy being taken off, so we walked together for a while, we had her on two leads, me one side him the other, then when she had settled,

What happened to make her settle?I passed my lead over to him and dropped back. I went to sit on a bench where she could still see me. We had taken her to a quieter part where there were not so many dogs. He is a firm, but gentle trainer, certainly not cruel, he said it was not nervous aggression but dominance.

Dominance theory has been debunked. It sounds like he is an old school trainer who has not studied modern training methods

My friend has known the family over 30 years so knows his methods, I wouldn't have arranged it otherwise.
He did get her a lot better,

By doing what?

we were able to walk past another dog on the other side of the road several times which she would never have done before and that was with just me on my own.

It will be interesting to know if that continues.