PCN Aire Street, Leeds

Adam_hx3

Hi everyone,

This forum has been a great help to me in deciding if and how to challenge a PCN which I opened yesterday to my horror.

There are a couple of specific matters that I would like advice on before I proceed with the appeal.

Firstly, I moved house recently and the PCN was sent to my old address. The owner of the house only just passed it on to me and the 28 days within which I can appeal have now passed. From what I have read though that does not necessarily mean I should not appeal, am I right?

Secondly should I inform the company of my new address? I'm guessing no? Or should I just not respond to the letter at all as they do not have my new address (although I am guessing they could get it from the DVLA?).

The driver was in the car park less than 2 hours and paid the £3 fee that gives you up to 2 hours parking. He checked his expenses submission at work today and he did put in a claim for £3 for parking on the 'date of event'. I went to the car park today to check that £3 was the correct tarriff. I cannot therefore understand why I have been sent the charge. All I can think is that perhaps the registration number correctly before the ticket was issued, but I don't see why I would do that. I've also read another thread about different charges in different parts of the car park. I didn't notice anything about this, but surely this would not be permissible if not made clear?

As far as I am concerned the correct tarriff was paid, so I do not think by law that I owe them anything. Should I question why the charge has been issued in my letter?

Thanks in advance for any help you can give. As you can see I have a few unanswered questions that I am not sure about, but I am determined I will not pay this charge.

Adam_hx3

Here is a first stab at the letter. Any advice would be most welcome:


I recently moved house and was passed a PCN from your company yesterday. It states that it was issued on 25/02/2015, but as there is no postmark on the envelope I cannot be sure of when it was posted or when it arrived.

Your letter states that the driver either did not purchase the appropriate parking time or remained in the car park longer than permitted. This is not the case. The driver paid the £3 required for a stay of up to two hours. In order to ascertain this fact the driver checked the relating work expenses claims today and was able to confirm that a £3 claim for parking on that day was submitted.

I visited your car park again today to check the tariff and the £3 paid is the appropriate tariff for a stay of up to two hours. The duration of stay according to your letter was 1 hour 39 minutes.

Your letter shows absolutely no evidence of any breach of your terms and conditions. It merely alledges to show the car entering and leaving your car park within the time which was allowed based on the tariff which was paid.

In any case, the amount you are proposing to charge is completely disproportionate to the loss incurred by Parking Eye Car Park Management and any landowners and is punitive, contravening the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1997.

I invite you to cancel this charge, or supply a POPLA verification code if you reject this appeal.

If you choose to pursue me please be aware that I will not enter into any correspondence and this will be the only letter you will receive from me until you answer the specific points raised in my letter.

Adam_hx3

Or am I better off just using this template below from the forum that does not go into any details. I'm confused.


Dear Sirs

Re: PCN No. ....................

I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car, on these main grounds:

a). The sum does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss, nor is it a core price term. It is a disguised penalty and not commercially justified.
b). As keeper I believe that the signs were not seen, the wording is ambiguous and the predominant purpose of your business model is intended to be a deterrent.
c). There is no evidence that you have any proprietary interest in the land.
d). Your 'Notice' fails to comply with the POFA 2012 and breaches various consumer contract/unfair terms Regulations.
e). There was no consideration nor acceptance flowing from both parties and any contract with myself, or the driver, is denied.

Your clients should be thoroughly ashamed of the shoddy way you treat consumers visiting their premises. The landowner will be made fully aware of this matter and your response, which I will forward to their CEO when I complain in writing and via social media, as appropriate. Parking firms like yours fail to demonstrate even a basic understanding of customer service. The reputation of your business model appears to be more akin to a protection racket than 'parking management'. Your ATA may offer sound-bites about driving up standards or fight for motorists' rights but in reality they are not a regulator; they merely exist to represent the interests of paying members, in order to gain access to DVLA data. The public have no faith in the private parking industry and, as far as I have seen, your firm has not shown itself to be any different than the ex-clampers with whom you share a membership.

The purpose of this communication is:

1. Formal challenge
There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. As such, you must either rely on the POFA 2012 or cancel the charge. I suggest you uphold this challenge now or alternatively, send a rejection letter - subject to accepting my claim for costs as clearly stated below, since you have no case.

2. ''Drop hands'' offer
The extravagant 'parking charge' is baseless but I realise that you may have incurred nominal postage costs. Equally, I have incurred costs to date, for researching the law and responding to your junk mail dressed up to impersonate a parking ticket. It is clear that my costs and yours, at this point, do not exceed £15. Therefore, this is a formal “drop hands” offer. I remind you of the duty to mitigate any loss, so withdraw the spurious charge within 35 days without further expense and I will not pursue you for my costs. If you persist then I will charge in full for my time at £18 per hour plus my out-of-pocket expenses and damages for harassment.

3. Notice of cancellation of contract
I hereby give notice of withdrawal from this alleged 'contract' which was never properly offered by you and certainly was not expressly agreed. This 'contract' is hereby cancelled and any obligations now end. If you offer - and if I decide to use - IAS or POPLA, then the contract ends immediately on the date of their decision (whatever the outcome) so my notice of cancellation still applies. The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation & Additional Payments) Regulations apply now to every consumer contract, save for a few exemptions, which parking contracts are not. It is the will of Parliament following the EU Consumer Rights Directive, that express consent is obtained for consumer contracts now - not implied consent - and that information is provided in a durable medium in advance.

You have failed to meet these requirements. The foisting of unexpected contracts like this on consumers, by stealth, is a thing of the past.

By replying to the challenge you are acknowledging receipt and acceptance of points 2 and 3 above. If you decide to persist with this unwarranted threat, I will be put to unnecessary expense and hours of time in appealing or defending this matter. As such, you will be liable for my costs and a pre-estimate of my loss - and in contrast with yours, mine is genuine - is that this sum will be likely to exceed £100.

I have kept proof of submission of this challenge. I look forward to your considered reply within 35 days.

Yours faithfully,

Redx

you should not be trying to engage them in dialogue, as this would prolong the process, so dont ask them to explain themselves, just dispute the INVOICE on the grounds it is invalid

send the template letter, minus any rant , and add an extra point F) that the invoice (pcn) is not valid as the driver (do not imply who was driving) paid the correct tariff and you enclose a copy of that paid for ticket (scan or take a picture and include it as evidence - keep the original safe)

dont start all the arguing or asking questions , just tell them to cancel or issue a popla code

as RK, give them the new address mentioning that you as RK have moved recently and here is the correct and new serviceable address

dont tell a story, dont try to reinvent the wheel, just tell them the invoice has no basis and you want it cancelled (or a popla code)

too many people fall down at this stage by putting too much info in the appeal

ps:- just because the driver claimed £3 for expenses at work DOES NOT PROVE he bought a £3 ticket, only the actual £3 ticket proves this as it is the contractual proof that the rules were abided by, plus its the ONLY PROOF too, and should have the VRN printed on it too (even if its not the correct VRN, like if a mistake was made putting it into the machine)

MothballsWallet

As Redx says, Adam, all you want to do at this stage is to get a POPLA code out of the PPC - and it's at the POPLA stage that you put in all the relevant info.

It's at POPLA that a well-written appeal will kill this PCN stone dead.

Please make sure you post your drafts up here when they're done for comment before sending them off, but please don't miss the deadlines.

All the info you need is in the NEWBIES thread.

Good luck

Adam_hx3

That's very helpful thanks.

Unfortunately I have already missed the deadline for the appeal. Does this mean they may refuse to issue a POPLA code?

btw, I'm hoping the HR dept still has the ticket that was issued with the expenses claim. If not, I'm guessing I still have a case though.

Redx

yes they may refuse popla as the 28 day appeal deadline may have passed (although its only anoter made up rule and they could cancel or issue a popla code if they wish to), so do it online asap on their site , telling them the driver still has the paid for ticket and that a copy of it will be produced if required

then try and get it back (or a copy of it) asap as its the only contractual proof you have that the rules were not broken on this occasion

its your proof or purchase and a contractual paper record of what happened on the day and when, plus the VRN entered into the machine as well

in simple terms, their cameras take pictures of the car VRN plate entering and leaving, this is compared to the ticket machine registrations entered and a pcn is issued for any discrepancies

the more likely scenario is that the wrong VRN was entered so did not match up to the cameras

so that ticket is vital as a piece of evidence

the fact that expenses were claimed is not proof at all, people have fiddled expenses since the days of Nero and the romans

Adam_hx3

OK, so providing I can get a copy of the ticket from my HR department (which I should find out tomorrow), I'm going to go with this. I've used a template I found on this forum but toned down the 'rant' a bit:


Dear Sirs

Re: PCN No. ....................

I received a 'PCN' from your company on 27th March 2015. It was passed to me by the landlord of my previous address XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX. My current address is XXXXXXXXXXXXXX.

I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car, on these main grounds:

a). The sum does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss, nor is it a core price term. It is a disguised penalty and not commercially justified.
b). As keeper I believe that the signs were not seen, the wording is ambiguous and the predominant purpose of your business model is intended to be a deterrent.
c). There is no evidence that you have any proprietary interest in the land.
d). Your 'Notice' fails to comply with the POFA 2012 and breaches various consumer contract/unfair terms Regulations.
e). There was no consideration nor acceptance flowing from both parties and any contract with myself, or the driver, is denied.
f) The invoice (pcn) is not valid as the driver paid the correct tariff and I enclose a copy of that paid for ticket.

The purpose of this communication is:

1. Formal challenge
There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. As such, you must either rely on the POFA 2012 or cancel the charge. I suggest you uphold this challenge now or alternatively, send a rejection letter - subject to accepting my claim for costs as clearly stated below, since you have no case.

2. ''Drop hands'' offer
The extravagant 'parking charge' is baseless but I realise that you may have incurred nominal postage costs. Equally, I have incurred costs to date, for researching the law and responding to your mail. It is clear that my costs and yours, at this point, do not exceed £15. Therefore, this is a formal “drop hands” offer. I remind you of the duty to mitigate any loss, so withdraw the spurious charge within 35 days without further expense and I will not pursue you for my costs. If you persist then I will charge in full for my time at £18 per hour plus my out-of-pocket expenses and damages for harassment.

3. Notice of cancellation of contract
I hereby give notice of withdrawal from this alleged 'contract' which was never properly offered by you and certainly was not expressly agreed. This 'contract' is hereby cancelled and any obligations now end. If you offer - and if I decide to use - IAS or POPLA, then the contract ends immediately on the date of their decision (whatever the outcome) so my notice of cancellation still applies. The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation & Additional Payments) Regulations apply now to every consumer contract, save for a few exemptions, which parking contracts are not. It is the will of Parliament following the EU Consumer Rights Directive, that express consent is obtained for consumer contracts now - not implied consent - and that information is provided in a durable medium in advance.

You have failed to meet these requirements. The foisting of unexpected contracts like this on consumers, by stealth, is a thing of the past.

By replying to the challenge you are acknowledging receipt and acceptance of points 2 and 3 above. If you decide to persist with this unwarranted threat, I will be put to unnecessary expense and hours of time in appealing or defending this matter. As such, you will be liable for my costs and a pre-estimate of my loss - and in contrast with yours, mine is genuine - is that this sum will be likely to exceed £100.

I have kept proof of submission of this challenge. I look forward to your considered reply within 35 days.

Yours faithfully,

Guys_Dad

At the point of the parking "offence", had you notified the DVLA of your new address? Have you done so now?

Adam_hx3

I'm afraid I hadn't. Will do so today. Will that harm my defence?

Redx

no , but it does not help it either , as PE got the correct details from the DVLA at the time of the "offence" (not that it was an offence)

any "offence" its not disclosing the new address details to the DVLA and you can be "fined" up to £1000 for not informing the DVLA of the change, although its unlikely as long as you sort it out asap (plus your driving license too)

therefore, use the template letter you created , remembering that less is more in this case , checking the VRN on the paid for receipt and adding it to the appeal as a scanned copy or picture