Use Vegetable Oil If You Have A Diesel Car

mikey72

Wig wrote: »

Where do you get free SVO from?

To qualify for the dutyfree allowance of 2500 litres you have to register with HMC&E, and your fuel must reach their cleanliness standards for biofuel or biodiesel. HMC&E reserve the right to ask you to prove that the fuel you use meets their standards. If they do ask, you can tell them that you use SVO (as defined above) show them your reciepts and they will be happy, because they know that clean-unused veg oil meets the standards, - it has been tested and is known to comply. If you tell them you use WVO (as defined above) They might challenge you further to prove that it meets their cleanliness standards. This is because WVO is known (a batch was tested) to fail the tests on sulphur content and possibly other elements.

I was registered, they wrote to me and de-registered me as I didn't use enough.
You only need to register when you exceed the limit.
The only figures I've even seen were production tests for new oil, which should always pass unless sulphur has been added to it, (it normally isn't, even as a preservative)
It's not added during cooking, so shouldn't change as WVO.
Where have you seen the test results, as it's a subject I'm keen on, and have only just stopped as the new car has a Lucas pump, not Bosch.

lifesuckssometimes

GarethK wrote: »

Yeah i'm really angry about it but i'm just going to sit at my computer screen and agree that it is disgusting how expensive it is, but do nothing pro-active about it.

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: Yep like most of us me included.

Wig

mikey72 wrote: »

I was registered, they wrote to me and de-registered me as I didn't use enough.
You only need to register when you exceed the limit.
The only figures I've even seen were production tests for new oil, which should always pass unless sulphur has been added to it, (it normally isn't, even as a preservative)
It's not added during cooking, so shouldn't change as WVO.
Where have you seen the test results, as it's a subject I'm keen on, and have only just stopped as the new car has a Lucas pump, not Bosch.

Fair 'nuff I might be wrong about needing to be registered. I read about the tests on a forum it may have been this one but I think it was a different one.
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/index.php

One of the members paid for a sample of SVO and WVO to be sent to Germany for testing. The difference in the sulphur (or whatever) content is not due to it being added, it occurs naturally as food is cooked/charred in the high temp oil. It may not have been sulphur content it may have been phosporus or ester or something else....can't remember.

I distinctly remember the water content was also very high in the WVO, unbelieveably the specification has a maximum value for water content!!! Max 750 mg/Kg but I don't know if it affects the classification as a "biofuel"

http://www.biomotors.co.uk/133835.pdf
That is the test result for clean SVO you can see the water content is already close to the maximum, it's hardly surprising then that after cooking food and frozen food in the oil the water content will increase way beyond the limit.

I did do a quick search of the forum, couldn't find it. it probably was a different one.

payless

Correct SVO / WVO does not make the grade as biodisel . However 'biofuels simplification Brief (11/08) seems to confirm that the 2500L exemption limit is not just for biodiesel but includes biofuel , which in turn includes certain (non hydrocarbon ) fuel substitutes, some of which don't appear to have any ester/sulphur/water requirements

Wig

payless wrote: »

Correct SVO / WVO does not make the grade as biodisel . However 'biofuels simplification Brief (11/08) seems to confirm that the 2500L exemption limit is not just for biodiesel but includes biofuel , which in turn includes certain (non hydrocarbon ) fuel substitutes, some of which don't appear to have any ester/sulphur/water requirements

SVO does make the grade as "biofuel" or "biodiesel" the problem is WVO.

I saw the post you put first, with a quote from HMRC. I'll quote from HMRC the sections which I think are relevant

Can vegetable oil be used or sold as motor fuel free of excise duty? Vegetable oil - unused and used, processed or unprocessed - that is set-aside or intended for use as motor fuel is liable to duty unless the producer is exempt.

Exempt producers/users
If you have produced or used less than 2,500 litres of:

• any biofuel
• any other fuel substitute or additive

The problem here is the definition of "biofuel" & "fuel substitute"

2. Biofuel producers' obligations 2.1 What are biodiesel, bioblend, bioethanol and bioethanol blend?

The law describes biodiesel as a diesel quality* liquid fuel that is produced from biomass or waste cooking oil:

• the ester content of which is not less than 96.5% by weight; and
• the sulphur content of which does not exceed 0.005% by weight, or is nil.

*diesel quality means that the fuel is a substitute for diesel rather than petrol.
'Bioblend' means any mixture that is produced by mixing:

• biodiesel; and
• heavy oil that has not been charged with the excise duty on hydrocarbon oil.<<< I don't know what that might include

'Bioethanol' means a liquid fuel:

• consisting of ethanol produced from biomass; and
• capable of being used for the same purposes as light oil.

'Bioethanol blend' means any mixture that is produced by mixing:

• bioethanol; and
• hydrocarbon oil not charged with excise duty. << umm so excluding diesel and petrol at the pumps another confusing point.

2.2 Other fuel substitutes

Any liquid that is not hydrocarbon oil, biodiesel, bioblend, bioethanol or bioethanol blend but is used in place of mineral oil to fuel any engine, motor or other machinery is classed as a fuel substitute. Please see section 3.1.1 for further details. This includes:

• any liquid used as a fuel in place of mineral oil;
• any liquid which is used as an additive or extender to a mineral oil; or
• any liquid which is used as an additive or extender in a fuel substitute.

However, water is not considered to be a fuel substitute when used in a diesel emulsion when the emulsion is stabilised with additives. Duty is charged only on the non-water part of the fuel.

2.3 Fuel additives

Products such as fuel system cleaners, injector cleaners, fuel conditioners and biocides are considered to be fuel additives and are liable to excise duty. Any product that is added into the fuel supply of vehicles either via the filler cap or via various parts of the fuel system, for example the carburettor, is treated as a fuel additive.
The position can be summarised as follows:
Any product added to motor fuel which is not hydrocarbon oil, as defined in Section 1(2) of the Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1979 (HODA), biodiesel, bioethanol, bioblend or bioethanol blend is considered by the Commissioners to be for use as an additive in that motor fuel and will be subject to excise duty under Section 6A of HODA.
The duty rate is determined by what sort of engine the product is designed to be used in. Therefore products designed for use in a diesel engine take the diesel rate; products designed for an unleaded petrol engine take the unleaded petrol rate; and products designed for use in leaded petrol engines take the leaded petrol rate. Products designed to be multi-purpose (i.e. for use in any kind of engine) attract the unleaded petrol rate.
Any product that is 100 per cent hydrocarbon oil and is used solely for lubrication is exempt from excise duty.
3.1.1 Duty rates for fuel substitutes

Fuel substitutes pay the rate of duty applicable to the type of engine in which they are used. For example, a product designed for use in a diesel engine will attract the diesel rate. With fuel substitutes, the duty rate is applied to the whole non-hydrocarbon oil content of the liquid. So, if a duty paid fuel substitute is added to another fuel substitute which is not duty paid, duty is due under Section 6A of HODA on that part of the mixture that has not already been charged with duty under that section.

The problem with the HMRC is that they don't like to use plain English and simple rules, instead they tie you up in definitions and specifications.

SVO does pass as biodiesel
WVO as a biodiesel is seemingly limited only by it's sulphur and ester content, which begs the question what is meant by specification E DIN 51 605 for "Vegetable oil as diesel fuel" which is referred to in Don Goodwin's test report

"The "Pura Oil" meets the full definition of Biodiesel (Public Notice 179E).
1. It meets the specification E DIN 51 605 for "Vegetable oil as diesel fuel".
2. The ester content of the product ist higher than 96,5 % and the sulfur content is lower than
50 mg/kg (0,005 per cent by weight)."

So it must be the sulphur or ester content of WVO which excludes it from being "Biodiesel"

At this point I'd like to point out I did not know about the 2500l rule including fuel substitutes, and the guys I read discussing this on the forum also did not know, and they were discussing that SVO met the spec (and thereby qualified for the 2500l) but WVO did not.


Now the question arises Are pure WVO or WVO diluted with duty paid diesel classed as fuel substitute?

It would appear that they both do qualify. So anyone using WVO might be ok. Try asking HMRC and I bet you don't get a straight answer.

We seem to have come to a point of good understanding on this subject.

payless

Yeah I edited my post, so not to be OTT on terminlogy OR to potentially to stating something as fact when it was an interpretation .

I've seen replies alledgely from HMRC posted on certain forums that would imply WVO either
A . processed into correct biodiesel # OR
B. mixed with other duty paid fuel*
C on its own*
is duty free so long as you don't produce or use more than 2500L pa

# CARE this involves using dangerous chemicals !

* care needed using WVO as fuel - likely needs filtering, dewatering etc... and even then is unsuitable in most most cars

payless

We seem to have come to a point of good understanding on this subject.

agreed..............

To date I have not used any WVO , but its an area that interests me, on both a moneysaving and green point of view ....
there's a envirnomental agrument against using SVO for fuel- although I would suggest that most people looking at using WVO will want to try out SVO first

veggiecar

Wig wrote: »

The difference in the sulphur (or whatever) content is not due to it being added, it occurs naturally as food is cooked/charred in the high temp oil. It may not have been sulphur content it may have been phosporus or ester or something else....can't remember.

Wig wrote: »

So it must be the sulphur or ester content of WVO which excludes it from being "Biodiesel"

spot on
The figures the HMC&E are interested in are an Ester Content of 96.5%, and a 0.02 % or lower sulphur content.

If using badly contaminated WVO, then some of the triglycerides(three chain fatty acids) get changed into diglycerides(two chain fatty acids) and monoglycerides(single chain fatty acids) by the cooking processes, and during the transesterifying process some of the diglycerides and monoglycerides may not get changed to methyl or ethyl esters so the resultant Biodiesel may not meet the HMC&E requirements of 96.5% ester.

Likewise SVO may have possible trace elements of sulphur, although again WVO if used for cooking garlic, onions etc may have extra sulphur and again not meet required HMC&E levels.

mikey72

veggiecar wrote: »

spot on
The figures the HMC&E are interested in are an Ester Content of 96.5%, and a 0.02 % or lower sulphur content.

If using badly contaminated WVO, then some of the triglycerides(three chain fatty acids) get changed into diglycerides(two chain fatty acids) and monoglycerides(single chain fatty acids) by the cooking processes, and during the transesterifying process some of the diglycerides and monoglycerides may not get changed to methyl or ethyl esters so the resultant Biodiesel may not meet the HMC&E requirements of 96.5% ester.

Likewise SVO may have possible trace elements of sulphur, although again WVO if used for cooking garlic, onions etc may have extra sulphur and again not meet required HMC&E levels.

I thought triglycerides, diglycerides and monoglycerides were all esters.
And the sulpher content of garlic is measured in nmol/mg, so it would take a lot to increase the level when diluted in the used oil.

veggiecar

mikey72 wrote: »

I thought triglycerides, diglycerides and monoglycerides were all esters..

They are. However, with transesterification being the process of breaking down the ester bonds and recombining with another alcohol, if these single (and sometimes) double bonds are broken and not recombined, the resultant will not be an ester.

mikey72 wrote: »

And the sulpher content of garlic is measured in nmol/mg, so it would take a lot to increase the level when diluted in the used oil.

Absolutely, I think the product would smell so much that you would find a better supplier.

So, hopefully we are all in agreement that WVO would have to be pretty rank, to fall below standards, after proper filtering and dewatering to use directly as fuel, or for making biodiesel.