Parking eye Signage - Leeds Aire Street

Nutella02

Does anyone have a recent picture of the parking signage of the sign nearest the parking payment meter At Aire Street car park Leeds, right next to the train station. No bays outlined, dirt track, lumps and bumps style park where you can.
I've just rec'd a letter saying I overstayed but it is clear that their misleading and confusing signage is at fault. I'm not from Leeds hence me asking. If not, I will make the trip back to take photos myself. I thought no harm in asking as from what I have read there will be lots of people in the same boat.

Thanks

Fruitcake

I can't help with signage but it certainly will be one of the appeal points you should use to beat this when you appeal, but don't just rely on poor signage.


I take it you have read the Sticky thread for NEWBIES where you will find the information you need to make a two stage appeal to beat this. I also assume you know not ignore, not to reveal who was driving, and not to pay.

Nutella02

Yes I have been reading the newbies section and have cut and pasted the first appeal letter to change into my own. Yes, take it from the keeper and not driver.
there is lots of info and I hope I have understood what I should do. although- when you say not to rely on poor signage alone- that is the whole reason I paid as much as I thought was necessary. It was due to the wording and clarity (lack of it) of the sign? Am I going to have to find other reasons why I'm not paying?

Thank you for your response.

Fruitcake

KayMc wrote: »

Yes I have been reading the newbies section and have cut and pasted the first appeal letter to change into my own. Yes, take it from the keeper and not driver.
there is lots of info and I hope I have understood what I should do. although- when you say not to rely on poor signage alone- that is the whole reason I paid as much as I thought was necessary. It was due to the wording and clarity (lack of it) of the sign? Am I going to have to find other reasons why I'm not paying?

Thank you for your response.

My advice would be to use all the appeal points in the template from the NEWBIES thread. Inadequate signage, no GPEOL, no standing to bring charges, no contract. If the signs are inadequate you may win on a single appeal point, but adding the other points improves your chances. Most wins against parking lie are on no GPEOL.


Don't miss the appeal deadlines. If you appeal online you may need to remove some of the "rant" from the template to make it fit the 3000 parking lie character limit. I don't know if they accept postal appeals, but if so you should send it first class from a Post Office and obtain a free proof of posting. Never send anything recorded delivery to a PPC as by not signing for it they will have proof they didn't receive it. Sneaky barstewards ain't they?

Nutella02

Wow! Thank you for these heads up!

I was going to appeal through the post. but shall do this online, taking out the ranty bits.

Thank you!!

Fruitcake

If you post your (redacted) appeal here first some of the regulars may be able to give it a quick once over before you send it off.

Nutella02

Hello once more - Okay so I have written my redacted appeal and added bits in red for ones perusal and advice - please can you tell me if it makes sense? The reason I got the fine is because of the tariff times stipulated on the signage - three tariffs set out - Week day - Weekend - over night stay (upto 14hrs). I can upload the pic of the signage I took today (I drove back to Leeds) and if that's going to aid understanding could some one please let me know.

So am I okay to cut and paste my appeal letter on here, right now?

Thank you once again!

Umkomaas

KayMc wrote: »

Hello once more - Okay so I have written my redacted appeal and added bits in red for ones perusal and advice - please can you tell me if it makes sense? The reason I got the fine is because of the tariff times stipulated on the signage - three tariffs set out - Week day - Weekend - over night stay (upto 14hrs). I can upload the pic of the signage I took today (I drove back to Leeds) and if that's going to aid understanding could some one please let me know.

So am I okay to cut and paste my appeal letter on here, right now?

Thank you once again!

You need to use the initial appeal, as per the NEWBIES sticky, 'as is'. Unless you know exactly what you're doing, adding anything else is more likely to do you harm than good.

What happened on the day (or night) is all but totally irrelevant in a private parking matter.

Nutella02

Okay - so I shouldn't state the case why I am not paying - I should just keep all this:


Dear Sirs

Re: PCN No. ....................

I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car, on these main grounds:

a). The sum does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss, nor is it a core price term. It is a disguised penalty and not commercially justified.
b). As keeper I believe that the signs were not seen, the wording is ambiguous and the predominant purpose of your business model is intended to be a deterrent.
c). There is no evidence that you have any proprietary interest in the land.
d). Your 'Notice' fails to comply with the POFA 2012 and breaches various consumer contract/unfair terms Regulations.
e). There was no consideration nor acceptance flowing from both parties and any contract with myself, or the driver, is denied.

The purpose of this communication is:

1. Formal challenge
There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. As such, you must either rely on the POFA 2012 or cancel the charge. I suggest you uphold this challenge now or alternatively, send a rejection letter - subject to accepting my claim for costs as clearly stated below, since you have no case.

2. ''Drop hands'' offer
The extravagant 'parking charge' is baseless but I realise that you may have incurred nominal postage costs. Equally, I have incurred costs to date, for researching the law and responding to your junk mail dressed up to impersonate a parking ticket. It is clear that my costs and yours, at this point, do not exceed £15. Therefore, this is a formal “drop hands” offer. I remind you of the duty to mitigate any loss, so withdraw the spurious charge within 35 days without further expense and I will not pursue you for my costs. If you persist then I will charge in full for my time at £18 per hour plus my out-of-pocket expenses and damages for harassment.

3. Notice of cancellation of contract
I hereby give notice of withdrawal from this alleged 'contract' which was never properly offered by you and certainly was not expressly agreed. This 'contract' is hereby cancelled and any obligations now end. If you offer - and if I decide to use - IAS or POPLA, then the contract ends immediately on the date of their decision (whatever the outcome) so my notice of cancellation still applies. The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation & Additional Payments) Regulations apply now to every consumer contract, save for a few exemptions, which parking contracts are not. It is the will of Parliament following the EU Consumer Rights Directive, that express consent is obtained for consumer contracts now - not implied consent - and that information is provided in a durable medium in advance.

You have failed to meet these requirements. The foisting of unexpected contracts like this on consumers, by stealth, is a thing of the past.

By replying to the challenge you are acknowledging receipt and acceptance of points 2 and 3 above. If you decide to persist with this unwarranted threat, I will be put to unnecessary expense and hours of time in appealing or defending this matter. As such, you will be liable for my costs and a pre-estimate of my loss that this sum will be likely to exceed £100.

I have kept proof of submission of this challenge. I look forward to your considered reply within 35 days.

Yours faithfully,


{the registered keeper's name}

I shouldn't make any reference to changing signage etc? attache pictures of the sign to explain how it is misleading - proof of paring ticket purchase? They will see this letter everyday so perhaps they will just reject like they normally do and then I have to appeal to POPLA?
Like you say - I don't want to say anything that they can twist.

Thank you

Umkomaas

As long as you've used the template from the NEWBIES sticky - as is - then just send it (with free cert of posting from your PO), and await your POPLA code.

They've got up to 35 days to respond, so up to 5 weeks for you to read up on how to produce a good POPLA appeal - NEWBIES sticky, post #3 - 'How to win at POPLA'.

Nutella02

Good Evening - this is still playing on my mind so I will send tomorrow-
Please tell me what you think, i'm a novice:

Date
Dear Sirs
Re: PCN No.
I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car, on these main grounds:
a). The sum does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss, nor is it a core price term. It is a disguised penalty and not commercially justified. b). As keeper I believe that the signs were VERY misleading, the wording and tariff breakdown is ambiguous and the predominant purpose of your business model is intended to be a deterrent. c). There is no evidence that you have any proprietary interest in the land. d). Your 'Notice' fails to comply with the POFA 2012 and breaches various consumer contract/unfair terms Regulations. e). There was no consideration nor acceptance flowing from both parties and any contract with myself, or the driver, is denied.
The purpose of this communication is:
1. Formal challenge There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. As such, you must either rely on the POFA 2012 or cancel the charge. I suggest you uphold this challenge now or alternatively, send a rejection letter - subject to accepting my claim for costs as clearly stated below, since you have no case.
2. To suggest you change your signage at........... car park so the times of charge and 'tariffs' as you call them are clear, concise and lead on from one tariff to another, with no over lapping times so not to confuse your customers and cause such inconveniences in the future.
3. ''Drop hands'' offer The extravagant 'parking charge' is baseless but I realise that you may have incurred nominal postage costs. Equally, I have incurred costs to date, for researching the law, sourcing pictorial evidence and responding to your mail. It is clear that my costs and yours, at this point, do not exceed £15. Therefore, this is a formal “drop hands” offer. I remind you of the duty to mitigate any loss, so please withdraw the charge within 35 days without further expense and I will not pursue you for my costs. If you persist then I will charge in full for my time at £18 per hour plus my out-of-pocket expenses and damages for harassment.
4. Notice of cancellation of contract I hereby give notice of withdrawal from this alleged 'contract' which was never properly offered by you and certainly was not expressly agreed. This 'contract' is hereby cancelled and any obligations now end. If you offer - and if I decide to use - IAS or POPLA, then the contract ends immediately on the date of their decision (whatever the outcome) so my notice of cancellation still applies. The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation & Additional Payments) Regulations apply now to every consumer contract, save for a few exemptions, which parking contracts are not. It is the will of Parliament following the EU Consumer Rights Directive, that express consent is obtained for consumer contracts now - not implied consent - and that information is provided in a durable medium in advance.

You have failed to meet these requirements. The foisting of unexpected contracts like this on consumers, by stealth, is a thing of the past.

Please see attached photographic evidence to support this appeal. I have attached a parking ticket that from reading the signage had been paid beyond the weekday tariff where your charges started from 8am and ended at 6pm.
Also attached is a picture taken on 22nd March 2015 and is the tariff by which was read - as you can see it clearly states the time period of the weekday tariff. The car was not parked on a weekend and was not parked over night. There were no 'additional' hours spent.
By replying to the challenge you are acknowledging receipt and acceptance of points 2 and 3 above. If you decide to persist with this unwarranted threat, I will be put to unnecessary expense and hours of time in appealing or defending this matter. As such, you will be liable for my costs and a pre-estimate of my loss that this sum will be likely to exceed £100.
I have kept proof of submission of this appeal. I look forward to your considered reply within 35 days.
Yours faithfully,
{the registered keeper's name}



I figure - if they are just going to refuse this appeal and Issue a POPLA then I might as well at least try make them understand my case?

I once go a parking ticket from the council because when i closed my door I blew the ticket over so it wasn't 'properly displayed' but when i wrote into the council they let me off and gave me proper ticket display holder - I'm guessing Parking eye may not be as understanding but is there any glimmer of hope? - Do the people reading the appeals have the final say over the decisions.