Capitalism vs Socialism

the_flying_pig

Generali wrote: »

South Korea has GDP of $1,305,000,000,000, North Korea's is $12,380,000,000 despite South Korea having only double the population of her northern neighbour.

If South Korea continues to grow at a rate of 3%, it's economy will grow by more than three times North Korea's total GDP!

At least everyone earns about the same money in North Korea so it's fair.

Mm, but you're comparing outcomes under a democratically elected centre right government with a nonetheless moderately active state that's nominally 'communist'... It's not yer hypothetical totally free market economy) with outcomes under a two & bit dictatorship.

Ask, instead, the question of whether living standards for the masses within the various high income mixed market and state economies are higher within the centre left ones than in the centre right ones and, well, that's a different question altogether.

Generali

the_flying_pig wrote: »

Mm, but you're comparing outcomes under a democratically elected centre right government with a nonetheless moderately active state that's nominally 'communist'... It's not yer hypothetical totally free market economy) with outcomes under a two & bit dictatorship.

Ask, instead, the question of whether living standards for the masses within the various high income mixed market and state economies are higher within the centre left ones than in the centre right ones and, well, that's a different question altogether.

Hmm, so when the answer isn't what is wanted the question is wrong.

How about this being a great comparison between two countries that started in the same place a few decades ago and are now in very different places due to economic decisions that were made.

padington

Isn't China 'communist' and aren't they predicted to be rulers of the universe
shortly ?

http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_asia_s_rise_how_and_when?language=en

the_flying_pig

padington wrote: »

Isnt China 'communist' and aren't they predicted to be rulers of the universe
shortly ?

http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_asia_s_rise_how_and_when?language=en

Yep. And by the way buys easily twice as much of 'free market' south Korea's exports as any other country does.

http://english.cntv.cn/program/newsupdate/20130801/102398.shtml

But, I mean, the very profound differences between how the two countries operate in practice say a fair bit about the pitfalls of using a crude catchall term like 'communist', and as for 'socialist'...

Marktheshark

Both systems of running the machine known as society.
A machine designed to produce the required fruits for the clever tree top monkeys so they can live a privileged life by harnessing the energy of the lower monkeys and stealing and taxing their labours.

Both produce the same result, one always claims to be superior, but both sets of workers end up in early grave worked to death.

the_flying_pig

China, where all banks and land are state-owned, offers some pretty big hints as to the value of 'private enterprise' in control of these. Equally, they've found the value of having middling (rather than too high or too low) tax levels and allowing private firms to innovate.

This said, they've been a bit lucky to get a relatively benign, relatively uncorrupt, government without democracy. History (including China's own) shows that it could very easily have been a different story.

padington

padington wrote: »

Isnt China 'communist' and aren't they predicted to be rulers of the universe
shortly ?

The talk shows the stupidi of the 'great leap forward' but also the Importance of things like good social health care systems and the difficulties fairly unregulated capatalism has caused itself in recent times.


http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_asia_s_rise_how_and_when?language=en

Another talk I saw (but can't find) predicted China would be a super power like we've never known, making the U.S power dynamic look like simply the biggest child in the playground. China, they said are heading for complete omnipotence. One day being able to produce 40 times what the U.S. could in one day (whether that be tanks, planes, bombs or spaceships).

Remember they are soon to equal in wealth but their 'circle' is much much bigger than ours already.

antrobus

padington wrote: »

Isnt China 'communist' and aren't they predicted to be rulers of the universe shortly ?

China is ruled by the Communist Party of China, but it has ditched all that Bolshevik nonsense in favour of 'Socialism with Chinese Characteristics'. Otherwise known outside China as 'Capitalism with Chinese Characteristics'.:)

the_flying_pig wrote: »

China, where all banks and land are state-owned, offers some pretty big hints as to the value of 'private enterprise' in control of these....

Well, I would point out that there was a time when all the land on this island was 'state owned' as well. (At least those parts not owned by the church.) Look how that turned out.:)

antrobus

Generali wrote: »

It's a very good point. How many Americans have risked their lives trying to get to Cuba?...

There are, I believe a number of US citizens who have fled to Cuba. Like, Vesco (a 60s version of Madoff) was hiding out there. But I don't think any of them faced any greater risks getting to Cuba, than they would have getting to the UK.

Generali wrote: »

...I'd put the ROTFL smilie in but it doesn't seem appropriate somehow given that people actually die. In the first 5 days of this year, almost 100 people were caught in open boats trying to cross open seas to Florida:...

People do die. The Cuban Coastguard will sink any boat they come across. Not everyone makes it back to dry land alive.

http://en.mercopress.com/2014/12/20/cuba-s-coast-guard-sinks-boat-carrying-32-refugees-who-were-trying-to-reach-fla.

globalds

A really interesting and very illuminating view of how a totalitarian state can end up sacrificing well being and quality for the bottom line ..The very thing those socialists scream capitalism is guilty of is a documentary called under the dome.
A link to an article on it is here: ( There is a link to the video with subtitles on the page)
http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/mar/09/chinese-pollution-documentary-under-the-dome-taken-offline-government

As an afterthought it uses London in the 50's as an example of how bad things are now in some Chinese cities ..So maybe Capitalism is as bad.