Seperation / Divorce Matrimonial Debts

enemes

Its complicated ... as these things always are.

I have custody of my kids, which for a mere bloke, is quite unusual. If it goes to court as intended later this month, then the whole custody thing is up in the air. It depends on which side of the bed the judge gets out of.

My lawyer, reckons that if we can agree on the financial differences out of court, then hopefully the whole saga can get resolved then. Its a small price to pay to prevent some possibly wayward judge overturning the custody order.

I do see the sense in it, so I am going on the pretence that it won't go to court and I am left with her/our debts. I just want to get some strategy in mind, so if it is resolved out of court, how I can then get her to pay her half of the debts.

I know that out of spite, she will not pay anything, despite the effect it will have on the kids, but then again her motives were always driven by getting back at me, rather than what is best for the children.

enemes

Aaaaargh! The most rediculous thing has just happened. I have just had a call from one of the ex's creditors saying that she had given them my number and was told to persue me, as it was a matrimonial debt!

It was taken out in her name, whilst we were together, but I know nothing about it. Surely they can't come to me for it. Can they?

eira

My understanding is that if it is in her name it is her debt. I had proof that all my debts (all in my name) were a direct result of ex using the money to skip the country/not paying maintenance etc but I still ended up paying them (and still am 10 years later) The really disgraceful aspect of this is that leaving you in this situation is also leaving the kids in the situation-quite unacceptable whatever happens between man and wife. One tip-keep a close record of your outgoings and tell your solicitor what she's done.

All best to you and the kids

enemes

Thanks eira ... will do just that, and have been doing so for some time.

Apparently, from the lawyer, debts incurred by her in her name while we were married are JOINT. The same applies to me though, credit cards et al.

if she could only see that this is having an effect on the kids also ... but I Live in hope!

eira

This isn't what I was told !! I was told that if the debt was in your name it is your debt regardless of how it arose. I had receipts etc showing that they arose because the maintenance was late/not paid etc-they were for food, kids ' clothes and the shortfall between the purchase price of my present house and the small equity I got from the matrimonial home. (and I even had reams of statements where he'd been late paying causing interest charges etc) He'd even borrowed an extra £26000 on the mortgage before he left-I had to pay it back although it all went into his personal account. The mortgage was a joint account

As you so rightly say it's the effect on the kids that is so unjust. The frightening thing about divorce is that it is a vast lottery. I carefully read the Which guide (which I recommend !) and knew the basics of what should and shouldn't happen but it doesn't work like that. It seems to be pot luck as to what happens. In an attempt at a maintenance review I managed to get a judge to accept that my ex was married and in a two income relationship when we got divorced. This meant that the lie on Form E-the declaration of income -was massive. He was 'not in a relationship'/'had no plans to marry' and was the sole payer of household bills ! He'd been married for four years-and not just to me. The judge who conceded that he was married when the original maintenance sum had been fixed said that it was 'irrelevant'. His suggestion was that I register my daughter for DLA again to 'increase the family income' ! At the time she was out of her wheelchair and no longer eligible.

One tip from a friend 's solicitor is to be very careful about your appearance and behaviour when you get to court. Be humble , dignified and controlled.
And- wear clean, ironed but shabby clothes. Eavesdrop on solicitors discussing the attitudes of various judges-ask your own. Some are more pro-mother than others, some award better than CSA for maintenance, some don't. I think this is totally appalling-it's no wonder they don't want the press in.

enemes

Thanks again eira

I know where you are coming from. Different people (ie judges) have different interpretaions on law. It IS a lottery. But such is the inconsistency of these judges, anything can happen. My lawyer looks to see who is sitting when and decides wether to go for an action on the basis of which judge is sitting ... which makes an !!!! of the law, really, as judges are supposedly there to ensure legal consistency. In fact, I had one occassion where the judge just looked up at the start of the proceedings and asked "What's going on here, how has HE got the children?".

Even more ridiculous, was that another judge in calculating the debts we had, took into account her "debts" which she had put forward, despite the fact that it was only me who was furnishing them. A joint debt was a joint debt in his eyes, although I was paying them monthly. Yeah ... the law is an !!!!, no matter what anybody says, judge or not!

Sorry to hear of your strife, but I can honestly relate to them under the experiences I have endured.

enemes

... and when I say !!!!, I really am saying "A-R-S-E", so beat that Mr Moderator!

eira

Good luck-you are already in a more powerful position than I was -you know the system is ridiculous and it sounds as if your solicitor knows how to play the system. Although I have complained bitterly about my solicitor I now realise how good my husband's solicitor was-just by lying low and playing the system.
a)Letters were never answered until the last possible moment-thus cutting his costs.When the papers appeared at court my 'side' had this vast bulk of virtually irrelevant requests and statements. His barrister was brief, sensible, solid and to the point.He gave just enough of the truth but didn't elaborate on it. Mine was a blustering pompous fool who kept reminding me that he 'dealt with cases worth millions of pounds'. He spent two days in court pontificating about international tax law to no purpose as he hadn't addressed the issue in hand-more irritation for the judge
b)Ex's solicitors ensured that the case appeared before different judges so that inconsistencies were never spotted-and of course the longer you keep it up the fatter the files get and the more irritated the judge gets. And you know that the other side's solicitor is way out of their depth. Very often my ex's solicitor didn't show or was late (more saved money)
c) By the time you've done this the custodial parent is desperate and doesn't make the same impact as the parent who's cleared off. In my case my files were huge making it look as if I was a real trouble maker. I've gone through the files and they really are a pile of garbage-hours and hours of total waste of time.

Keep your nerve-sounds as if you are on solid ground. And a winning point -frankly-is a solicitor that admits the whole thing is a jungle and doesn't pretend it has anything to do with equity and justice. Or the welfare of the children.
Rooting for you!!!!

enemes

...winning point -frankly-is a solicitor that admits the whole thing is a jungle and doesn't pretend it has anything to do with equity and justice. Or the welfare of the children

You are so right. The whole saga of the last two years has been an eye opener. To some lawyers it is just a game, and the children are the ball in the middle. My experience has been similar to yours, but the other way around, as I had the level headed lawyer, while hers seemed to play all the tricks that you mentioned, to the point that I was nervous of my lawyer's abilities and reckoned that when it came to proof, the other, more experienced "dog" would outwit mine.

However, yesterday,the day before we were due to go to proof today, I got a call from my lawyer to say that after everything that has gone before, they decided not to contest it. Quite clearly, although a huge relief to me, the other side were deliberately just cashing in on an opportunity for easy money. They obviously had no intention of contesting from the start, but realised that they could "make hay while the sun shines".

It maybe a game to them, but the stress and uncertainties it caused me and my children was sometimes unbearable. So, as of today, my divorce has gone through, custody of the children finalised ... but still no financial settlement, as my lawyer thought it would be more important to settle on the main points, in his mind, where the children live. It maybe the case that I will have to consider the debts as a payment for securing the children, but I don't intend to stop at that as I will find a way to get her to pay her half of her/our debts.

Again ... anybody got any suggestions on how I can force her to take responsibility of our debts, without dragging in those legal sharks?

eira

Good on you !!!!! List very carefully all the debts-joint/those in your name only and all matrimonial assets. List also all known accounts-bank/savings/mortgage/pension/.income. Any paperwork you have use it to check on this. Do it yourself so that there is no solicitor costs or prior warning to other party.
Make out a schedule of what you need to live on like a human being. How old are the kids ? They need to live in a reasonable manner and you need a life. Is she going to share the childcare if not you need provision for everything you are going to have to do alone.
Make sure that orders are open to change as the kids get older-and if the wording says maitenance is due until they finish full time education she will be liable to give them financial help throught university. Any other wording and the payments could stop at 16/18 or when they finish A levels. They don't stop eating or needing a roof over their heads just because they hit 16 or whatever. to protect yourself-and therefore them-make sure there's a nominal maintenance order for you-5p a year will do.It leaves the maintenance issue open in case somnething happens to you.
One of the things that sends me sky high is criticism of single parents whereas there isn't a peep about parents who've swanned off expecting others to foot the bill for their kids
Your kids will be proud of you