Help me with £100 fine! INJUSTICE!

Johnny111

Hi all,

Seems to be a few of these threads popping up, but I'll give you some quick details below and I'd be glad to hear any opinions below.

Employment - Sports Coaching

I was previously working under the PAYE scheme however moved to self-employment through an agency in 2012/2013.

My last date of self-employment/work was at the beginning of April 2013. I informed HMRC through their online form that I had ceased trading as a sole trader (sports coach) at that time. I completed a tax return in January 2014 for the tax year 12/13.

I have since been in and out of the country travelling however not working. As I had informed HMRC I had ceased trading in the previous tax year i.e in April 2013 online and via the telephone in which I was told everything was up to date and I had no more tax returns or weekly contributions to pay unless I start self-employment again, I was shocked to find that I have just had a letter through the post stating a penalty of £100 because I missed the deadline in January 2015 for the previous tax year, in which, I wasn't working and owned no tax. Slightly besides the point, but in the tax year 12/13 in which I did submit a tax return I actually had no tax to pay apart from my weekly NI contributions.

Tried to get through to them on the phone with no luck, to see what status they have on my account. When I submitted my only and final tax return in January 2014, I informed them I was no longer employed, so I don't think I can be blamed for thinking I had nothing else to do, especially considering the three points in which I haven't been employed since 2013, I told them this, and I had no tax to pay!

Saying that, I just logged onto my account and in about 10 seconds submitted the tax return which all the answers were "no" and "£0" and I could have done this before had I been made aware or known but received no correspondence.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

PlutoinCapricorn

Did you get a reminder to file for 2013/14 in April/May 2014?

zygurat789

Johnny111 wrote: »

Hi all,

Seems to be a few of these threads popping up, but I'll give you some quick details below and I'd be glad to hear any opinions below.

Employment - Sports Coaching

I was previously working under the PAYE scheme however moved to self-employment through an agency in 2012/2013.

My last date of self-employment/work was at the beginning of April 2013. I informed HMRC through their online form that I had ceased trading as a sole trader (sports coach) at that time. I completed a tax return in January 2014 for the tax year 12/13.

I have since been in and out of the country travelling however not working. As I had informed HMRC I had ceased trading in the previous tax year i.e in April 2013 online and via the telephone in which I was told everything was up to date and I had no more tax returns or weekly contributions to pay unless I start self-employment again, I was shocked to find that I have just had a letter through the post stating a penalty of £100 because I missed the deadline in January 2015 for the previous tax year, in which, I wasn't working and owned no tax. Slightly besides the point, but in the tax year 12/13 in which I did submit a tax return I actually had no tax to pay apart from my weekly NI contributions.

Tried to get through to them on the phone with no luck, to see what status they have on my account. When I submitted my only and final tax return in January 2014, I informed them I was no longer employed, so I don't think I can be blamed for thinking I had nothing else to do, especially considering the three points in which I haven't been employed since 2013, I told them this, and I had no tax to pay!

Saying that, I just logged onto my account and in about 10 seconds submitted the tax return which all the answers were "no" and "£0" and I could have done this before had I been made aware or known but received no correspondence.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

HMRC have the right to demand a tax return from every person in the UK and some beyond, all they have to do is ask.
The fact that you know you have no income does not mean you do not have to file a return. You have to sign your life away to that fact, as you have done but late.
When you logged on your tax return was there waiting for you, when they don't require one there will be no issue date.
Ignorance of the law excuses no one, I'm afraid HMRC have the law on their side.
Don't forget to check and see if you have been issued a 2014/15 tax return this year, end of April 2015 would be a good time.

Johnny111

PlutoinCapricorn wrote: »

Did you get a reminder to file for 2013/14 in April/May 2014?

I was in the USA from the spring through the summer, and I don't remember coming home to any document of the like. Nor do I have any messages on my HMRC account.

At the time, before I found the online form to state I had ceased being self employed, I emailed a couple of office email addresses at HMRC and received the below replies:

"Thank you for your online enquiry.

To cancel your registration you need to write to

HM Revenue & Customs

PAYE & Self Assessment

PO Box 1970

Liverpool

L75 1WX

If you are paying Class 2 National Insurance Contributions then you must also contact the Self Employed Contact Centre to stop your payments. You can contact them on 0845 915 4655.
For security reasons specific personal data may have been removed from this enquiry.

Regards

I write with reference to your e-mail regarding your self assessment account.

I am unable to accept an e-mail as notice to close down a self assessment account.

Please write in with confirm ation that you had no self employment earnings and I will close the account for you.

The address to write to is

HMRC

PAYE & Self Assessment

PO Box 1970

Liverpool

L75 1WX


Thank you

Sincerly yours

xxxxxxxxxxx

Tax Officer

Johnny111

zygurat789 wrote: »

HMRC have the right to demand a tax return from every person in the UK and some beyond, all they have to do is ask.
The fact that you know you have no income does not mean you do not have to file a return. You have to sign your life away to that fact, as you have done but late.
When you logged on your tax return was there waiting for you, when they don't require one there will be no issue date.
Ignorance of the law excuses no one, I'm afraid HMRC have the law on their side.
Don't forget to check and see if you have been issued a 2014/15 tax return this year, end of April 2015 would be a good time.

Thanks. But, there is living in some sort of scam dictatorship and living in what is supposed to be a reasonable country which is another debate all together. I believe in right and wrong.

It's not the fact that I knew that I had no income, it's the fact that I wasn't declared self-employed anymore, and as far as I was told by the HMRC themselves, it was done, finished, tax return submitted for previous tax year, nothing more to do. I despise a world in which we live where you have to officially inform HMRC you are not working and no longer self-employed, therefore free of paying tax in which they accept yet they can still covertly ask for a tax return where you again tell them you are not working, then they fine you £100 without warning. It's ridiculous.

Johnny111

Johnny111 wrote: »

I was in the USA from the spring through the summer, and I don't remember coming home to any document of the like. Nor do I have any messages on my HMRC account.

At the time, before I found the online form to state I had ceased being self employed, I emailed a couple of office email addresses at HMRC and received the below replies:

ACTUALLY! A lot went on around that time i.e in and out of the country but now I clearly 100% remember receiving the note that you talk about in April 2014 regarding my tax return and more importantly I know for a fact I called HMRC and spoke to a male with a Liverpudlian accent who stated that it was an error and if I wasn't employed for that period to ignore the letter, he would change the account and that was it. I clearly remember that phone call, not that by law without a recording it would prove anything, but that's what happened.

booksurr

Johnny111 wrote: »

ACTUALLY! A lot went on around that time i.e in and out of the country but now I clearly 100% remember receiving the note that you talk about in April 2014 regarding my tax return and more importantly I know for a fact I called HMRC and spoke to a male with a Liverpudlian accent who stated that it was an error and if I wasn't employed for that period to ignore the letter, he would change the account and that was it. I clearly remember that phone call, not that by law without a recording it would prove anything, but that's what happened.

so what !

have you documentary proof that "a Liverpudlian from HMRC" told you it was OK not to submit? No? Oh dear, thought not! Pay up!

Pennywise

So both the emails you received told you to write to HMRC, yet you didn't and instead chose to phone them? So you didn't write to them as they requested? By the time you contacted them in April, the SA return account would have already been set up and you'd have received a "notice to complete" - they're sent out on 6/4, so by telling them afterwards, it was too late to stop a return being requested. HMRC send out at least 2/3 notices/reminders through the post to tell you they're expecting a return - very unlikely all three were lost in the post. You did contact them to tell them your current addresses didn't you?

Johnny111

Jesus great attitude, have you just finished school or something?

THE INFORMATION HMRC GIVE OUT IS OFTEN INCORRECT AND INCOMPLETE: A Civil Service Capability Review admitted one in four of us contacting HMRC for advice is given, incomplete or inaccurate information. One in four! That’s a phenomenal figure for failure! The system is so complicated they can’t even get it right themselves.

Sorry, generally if you call a government service and they say that a letter you weren't expecting to receive that is received is an automatic computer error, to ignore it and they will mark/close the account, you generally take their word for it and expect they are competent. What should I have done? Spoken to a supervisor, asked them to put it in writing. Give me a break, you are being silly!

Johnny111

Pennywise wrote: »

So both the emails you received told you to write to HMRC, yet you didn't and instead chose to phone them? So you didn't write to them as they requested? By the time you contacted them in April, the SA return account would have already been set up and you'd have received a "notice to complete" - they're sent out on 6/4, so by telling them afterwards, it was too late to stop a return being requested. HMRC send out at least 2/3 notices/reminders through the post to tell you they're expecting a return - very unlikely all three were lost in the post. You did contact them to tell them your current addresses didn't you?

Hang on a minute! I did write to them after I received those emails that was beforehand. I received one notice in April, where I called up, and as above, I was told it was a mistake and to ignore it and it would be dealt with. I had also filled in the online form declaring as stopping trading.

For any doubt:

I submitted in writing a letter stating that I had stopped working in. This was sent in September 2013. NI payments were also stopped.

I also filled in the online form around this period stating I had stopped trading.

I also called after receiving the return letter on April 6th, and again, as above, I was told that it was an error, I had nothing to submit/not pay, to ignore it and my account would be dealt with.

TheCyclingProgrammer

Unfortunately once you've received a notice to file, you're obliged to file one unless you a) ask HMRC to cancel this and b) have written confirmation that you no longer need to file a return.

You appear to have done A but do not have B therefore your return was not filed on time and the penalty will stand. I'm afraid you'll just have to chalk this up to experience. It's not unusual for HMRC to keep requesting returns for years after ceasing self employment.

The fact you told them you had stopped trading is irrelevant. Your self employment status and self assessment records are two distinct things.