PPI Added to Black Horse Loan but Disappeared on Credit Agreement

Analytic_Annie

I took out a loan with Black Horse/Lloyds in December 2004.
the person I spoke to over the phone explained PPI and strongly pushed it. I was self employed at the time. I was told it would be simpler for me to write my last full time non-self employed job on application form. This I did and I was told the PPI had been added.

The cash price of the loan for the car was £3999. A Road Fund Licence of £55 and an admin charge of £59 was added to this PLUS £409.74 for Payment Protection Insurance. I paid £300 deposit bringing the amount to finance to £4222.74.

I have written to Black Horse a few times now. The first time I wrote (Sept. 2014) I received no response whatsoever. I wrote again 4 months later. I received a response saying they have no record of me taking out PPI on the loan.

I wrote to them again forwarding a copy of the Vehicle Order Form (which I've detailed above) and a copy of the Credit Agreement.
Thew credit agreement states:
Cash Price of Goods - £4522.74 minus the £300 deposit
totalling £4222.74 i.e. the exact price shown on the Vehicle Order Form with the £409.74 PPI added in.

On the Credit agreement it however states that there is no PPI
yet they clearly charged me for it as I've detailed.

I am unsure what to do about this. Black Horse have said 'unfortunately the documents you provided were non executed copies
of your proposed loan.' They go on to say they've enclosed a signed executed copy of the loan agreement 'showing that you didn't take out the Payment Protection on this loan.' They did not send me a copy of the form I sent them clearly showing they'd added on the £409.74 for PPI nor have they answered my questions about why this was added if It shows the PPI policy was never in fact in place.

They have told me I cannot complain to the Financial Ombudsman as they cannot consider loans taken out when mine was.

I am unsure what to do as this is not simply a case of miselling.
Its a case of money (PPI) being added/taken from me for a policy which mysteriously disappeared in the final loan agreement despite the money being taken from me.

Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

magpiecottage

Ultimately, the Financial Ombudsman Service, not the company, decides if it has jurisdiction or not.

Analytic_Annie

Ok thanks for this. So would you suggest I forward the documents to The Financial Ombudsman Service for them to look into it and to make a decision?

dunstonh

So would you suggest I forward the documents to The Financial Ombudsman Service for them to look into it and to make a decision?

The FOS will initially look at whether Black Horse are correct. If they are (and its probable given the date and it being dealer sold), then the FOS wont look at it unless Black Horse volunteer to accept liability. If the FOS think Black Horse have liability then it will ask them to reconsider.

Analytic_Annie

Ok thanks, thats helpful dunstonh

Might you/someone be able to clarify for me as I'm a little confused about 'dealer sold' and 'Black Horse' financing and where/who the liability rests in terms of the PPI being added to the policy.

The car dealership was registered to Virgin Cars via a dealership in Barnsley.
It was them who issued the Vehicle Order Form with the PPI costed in to the amount to be financed.

The financing/credit was taken out with Black Horse/Lloyds. Should I be approaching Virgin Cars about the PPI and not Black Horse?

Analytic_Annie

oh...just seen Virgin Cars ceased trading in 2005! so just a few months after I got a car from them...so not sure how I would get any redress there??

dunstonh

Might you/someone be able to clarify for me as I'm a little confused about 'dealer sold' and 'Black Horse' financing and where/who the liability rests in terms of the PPI being added to the policy.

The dealer is responsible for the sale of the loan and PPI. Only where dealers were agents of the lender would the lender take on liability for the sale.

Did Black Horse sell you the PPI? no
Did the dealer sell you the PPI? yes

The financing/credit was taken out with Black Horse/Lloyds. Should I be approaching Virgin Cars about the PPI and not Black Horse?

Yes. If they still existed, you would do that. However, Black Horse should have responded saying they dont have liability if that was the case but from the sounds of it they havent.

Nearlyold

Think there maybe a bit of confusion on this one.


Am I right in thinking that the vehicle order form is from the dealer and that you don't have any Blackhorse documentation showing PPI?


If PPI was arranged through Black Horse it would not appear on the dealers order form, you would have simply selected PPI on the Black Horse credit agreement by ticking and signing in a box


Unless your were arranging the finance yourself your phone call when arranging the vehicle purchase was not with Black Horse but with the dealership finance guy (particularly as you were advised to tell a little fib with regard to your employment at the time).


Therefore Black Horse did not sell you PPI and they didn't provide it either. Black Horse did not charge you, they lent you £4222.74 and this would have been the amount they sent to the dealer to pay for the goods you were buying.
The dealer probably sold you stand alone PPI (it also could have been some other protection insurance such as GAP if the order form does not specify which type it is) which they would arrange with an insurer such as Cardiff Pinnacle or similar. When they sent your finance proposal to Black Horse they simply lumped everything together under "goods" - Black Horse would never have known about the PPI. You should have received a policy document from whoever the insurer was, but if you didn't there is always the possibility the dealer "forgot" to arrange the policy.

Not that any of this is going to get you your money back as there is no dealer to complain to and its pre regulation (as others have already pointed out)

Analytic_Annie

Thanks dunstonh and Nearlyold for your replies.

dunstonh - It's a long shot but I think I'll direct a letter to Virgin explaining the situation and forward the paperwork. Virgin Cars ceased trading in 2005 like I said but it was still their company so perhaps something could come of that. I'll also write to the FOS, again a bit of a long shot given the time frame but they may be able to offer some advice if nothing else.

Nearlyold - yes, the Vehicle Order Form was from the dealership. Also Black Horse completely evaded my questions about the PPI on the Vehicle Order Form when they wrote back to me.

I could write back to Black Horse requesting a copy of the signed Vehicle Order Form (showing the PPI) if indeed they were sent a copy and/or whatever information they received from the dealership to finance the car. But as you say the dealership may have just bunched all the monies including the PPI cover together to give one lump sum to finance so Black Horse may not ever have received any info about the PPI.

I don't ever remember receiving any info in post about the PPI policy despite it clearly saying on the Vehicle Order Form PPI - £409.74

The sinister part of me thinks the person who sold me the PPI new full well I would not be able to make a claim with being self employed on a PPI policy, or maybe wouldn't be allowed to set up the policy in the first place if self employed, so they told me to write down my last full time, non-self employed job. And another thought is they just added the PPI but didn't set up the policy deliberately just to bump up the cost of the sale.

magpiecottage

There is a (slim) possiblity that the dealer acted as an agent of the insurer, making the insurer liable. However, you would need to direct such a complaint to the insurer, rather than Black Horse. Really you need to know who the insurer was (and, ideally, the policy number) to attempt that route.

Nearlyold

Where the dealer told you to write down your last full time, non-self employed job that would have been because they thought that Black Horse might not approve the loan if they knew you had only just become self employed - for the same reason that mini cab drivers applying for car loans become Transport Managers