School fine withdrawn!

carmina_piranha

Guest101 wrote: »

All situations are different. I'm not disputing that there are exceptional circumstances. Some might also say she chose to have a child with him, so he has a say in it. Just because you agree with your friend doesn't necessarily make it the right move.

It would in my opinion be quite morally wrong for example, if god forbid, you and your husband split up and you stopped taking his opinion into account, in regards your children. I assume you think he's a good father?

Yes there are cases of genuinely vindictive ex's both male and female. But usually they aren't both part of the same couple. So whilst your friend may well have such and ex. The OP it seems also does. Should he not have a say in his child's education simply because, for whatever reason, him and his partner/wife have seperated?

Yes she chose to have a child with him - the rest of us could see his true colours, but love is blind ...

Also, I'm thinking about an attendance situation where it's an illness as the root cause whereas the thread is about holidays, and it's fair enough that an absent parent may not want their child to miss school for a holiday. So I was going off topic, sorry.

Yes I think my husband is a good father, and I am sure I'd still take his opinion into account if we split up. I was joking about my having to, in reality we agree on almost everything where our children are concerned and presumably would try to find a way to communicate if we split.

I personally don't agree with term time holidays - but my opinion is coloured by my children being the sort that struggle to catch up and would genuinely be disadvantaged by a term time holiday, education-wise. If my children were like Fbaby maybe I'd think differently.

supersaver2

FBaby wrote: »

And I had parents who didn't think twice before taking me out of school to go on exotic holidays which left me with wonderful memories yet an education history on my CV to be proud of.

Education alone means so little. Some children will be seriously affected by missing a few days, other kids are failed by the school because their needs fall outside of that of the average pupil.

I agree, this is going away from the topic, but it is so tiring to read over and over how all children are considered equal in terms of the effects of missing school on their future, just as it is ridiculous to consider parents who take their kids from school 1 or 2 days every few years as irresponsible as those who take their kids off for 1 or 2 weeks systematically each year.

Of course we will all have different opinions but clearly as a teacher I can't agree that education means so little. I see the effects absence has my students and when they have 13 weeks holiday a year there seems little justification for taking weeks off for a cheapet foreign holiday abroad. Go in the school holidays or after education has finished, the world isn't going anywhere.

FBaby

supersaver2 wrote: »

Of course we will all have different opinions but clearly as a teacher I can't agree that education means so little. I see the effects absence has my students and when they have 13 weeks holiday a year there seems little justification for taking weeks off for a cheapet foreign holiday abroad. Go in the school holidays or after education has finished, the world isn't going anywhere.

What an assumption to make that because some parents decide for a variety of reasons to take their kids off school missing a few days of the education YOU provide, that education as a whole means so little to them. It's attitude like this that adds to parents' constant feeling of guilt when they should just enjoy themselves.

You might see the negative effect on some of your pupils, I totally appreciate that but can you really say it affects negatively every single one of them? I have taken my kids off school twice in 10 years, both times for only two days and yes, it was to enjoy a holiday abroad. I have always been honest about the reasons to their teachers and both times, the response from the teacher(s) was positive. One time, my son came back with a rock from a dormant volcano and the teacher actually asked him to talk about it in front of the class. He had gone on the internet to learn about the island (unknown to the majority of adults) and talked about the volcano as it happened to be the subject they had been studying. I was pleased that the teacher could appreciate that she wasn't the only person in my son's life who could provide him with a valuable education and didn't denigrate me or him as a result of having missed two days of school, especially when neither my children had had one sick day that year. We still talk regularly about these holidays and the things we learnt from it. DD is predicted A and A* in all her GCSEs, it is hard to picture that going away and building those memories turned so detrimental to her education. If she end up with an A in one subject that could have been an A* as a result (which I very much doubt) I would still feel she gained more from these two holidays than missing out on a *.

As a parent, I am 100% confident that they learnt more in these few missed days at school they would have at school (last day before and after holiday). That doesn't mean I don't have high respect for the work the teachers do with my kids and highly value the education they receive at school. Both my kids love school and have build great relationships with their teachers. It's all about balance and reason.

supersaver2

You do seem very defensive about the subject!

Also it wasn't my assumption that education means little to these parents, you said that in your post above 'education alone means so little.'

Is there any reason why children can't enjoy these holidays in the 13 weeks holiday they are already given? I teach top sets in Year 11, 12 and 13 and never yet experienced students taking time off for a holiday, my students are incredibly consciousness and know they would miss a lot and they actually enjoy being taught and wouldn't want to fall behind their peers. Most people that don't teach don't realise that even missing a couple of lessons will have detrimental effect on their learning because we are always building on knowledge and you can't move onto the next stage with gaps. I spend a of time after school helping my students grasp my subject (physics and further maths) as they are unsure of something we've discussed in class, if they are absent through illness I know I'll need to schedule an extra hour with them so they don't fall behind. I'd probably find it slightly annoying spending my time catching a student up that has taken time for holidays. Then if all parents had this attitude you could times that scenario by 30.

System

Is there any reason why children can't enjoy these holidays in the 13 weeks holiday they are already given?

Yes there is a very good reason in some areas of industry where holidays are fixed for business reasons and do not fall into holiday times..

I'm not sure whether it still happens but one example is the car industry was one. The production lines would shut down for specific periods for maintenance etc.and that is when the production line workers would HAVE to take their holidays, they were not given any other option.

Spendless

There are many reasons why people would take a term-time holiday cost isn't the only factor!

Last year I considered celebrating the fact that the kids Dad was still alive and hadn't died from Cancer 5 years earlier was worthy of a special holiday.

Going to Florida, meant a 2 week holiday, we couldn't go before he was discharged, Christmas wasn't possible as my 90yo Grandmother with dementia had nowhere else to go, but to my place and Easter I didn't go because I knew the school would send their yr 6 pupils home sats work/revision. Yes that's right in a school holiday I didn't go away because the school sent work home. I worked every single week during the summer hols to cover other absences, most workplaces don't shut down en-masse for their employees to all have the same weeks off in conjunction with school hols.

Instead we went the week before May 1/2 term, sats were over and the kids spent the week rehearsing a play on ww2 to perform the last day before they broke up. DD would have certainly enjoyed it, performing arts is all she wants to do, but I don't think I've deprived her since she attends an out of school drama group, has had theatre and tv auditions and sits exams via drama school. The topic of WW2 had finished months earlier before sats work commenced, so I don't feel she missed a chunk.

DS was in yr9, had chosen his options and was dropping every optional subject he had in favour of new subjects. Speaking to schools pastoral support worker, she was completely understanding of our reasons to go away.

That to me is totally different to taking a year 11/12/13 child out who is doing gcse, as or a level exams at the end of that year.

FBaby

Also it wasn't my assumption that education means little to these parents, you said that in your post above 'education alone means so little.'

Yes but I meant 'education' in its larger context, not just school education which is my whole point.

Is there any reason why children can't enjoy these holidays in the 13 weeks holiday they are already given?

As spendless says, there are various good reasons why a consciencious parent might decide to take children on holidays in term. In my case, the first time did involve my parents and their ability to join us on this family trip.

my students are incredibly consciousness and know they would miss a lot and they actually enjoy being taught and wouldn't want to fall behind their peers.

Well that's my point, my kids didn't fall behind their peers. I am fortunate to have children who are very academic and way ahead of the average. I could very much have a go at teachers for not providing them with the level of teaching they need, however, I appreciate that they are limited in doing so, that I have the choice to pay for private education and am grateful that their teachers do their best to ensure they are not bored. I just expect the same level of respect the other way around and not be judged because they missed a couple of days.

Most people that don't teach don't realise that even missing a couple of lessons will have detrimental effect on their learning because we are always building on knowledge and you can't move onto the next stage with gaps

I would challenge this, but even if this was indeed the case, what about the impact of sickness? My kids have had esssential lessons and exams cancelled because of teacher's sickness. According to you, this would also have an impact on their education. Should teachers be fined each time they are ill and children miss out as a result? Should parents who keep their kids home when they have nothing more than a cold be fined too for the same reasons?

The first time I took my kids out of school for two days before the start of the February holidays was a week after the town experienced a lot of snow (all relative in this country!). This resulted in the Headteacher for the first time in his career making attendance an optional to both pupils and teachers for two days. I made sure my kids went to school, even though it took us almost an hour to walk. As it turned out, their teacher didn't come even though she lived two streets from ours! I didn't judge her though, even though my kids missed two days of teaching (the kids who did make it to school, which was a minority went into clubs).

I genuinely admire teachers of this generation who have so much bureaucracy to cope with in addition to spending so much time disciplining kids who don't get it at home. My kids have been taught to respect teachers, not talk during class, not answer back, and to show an interest in what is taught. All I am asking is the same respect back in terms of the choices I make. Thankfully for me, all I had was positive feedback on my kids' attitude to school even when they missed these few days.

janninew

It does seem to be quite a new 'thing' to take your children out of school for family holidays, I can't remember it happening when I was at school 20 odd years ago.

I personally would not take my daughter from school for a holiday, only for unavoidable reasons. Not only do you have the issue of work missed, friendship groups change so rapidly and also if the school don't authorise it you have this on your record which many collages will ask for.

We never had foreign holidays as children and as somebody posted above you had to have a very good reason for Mum to let you stay off school. Remembering what a cheeky teen I was I can just imagine answering back to my mum that it was alright to miss school when it suited her!

carmina_piranha

janninew wrote: »

It does seem to be quite a new 'thing' to take your children out of school for family holidays, I can't remember it happening when I was at school 20 odd years ago.

I personally would not take my daughter from school for a holiday, only for unavoidable reasons. Not only do you have the issue of work missed, friendship groups change so rapidly and also if the school don't authorise it you have this on your record which many collages will ask for.

We never had foreign holidays as children and as somebody posted above you had to have a very good reason for Mum to let you stay off school. Remembering what a cheeky teen I was I can just imagine answering back to my mum that it was alright to miss school when it suited her!

I remember lots of children having time off for holidays when I was at school, and it seems less common nowadays.

I don't know if part of the reason is that there used to be factories with fixed 'shutdown'.

And not everyone is going abroad, sometimes it's a £9.50 sun newspaper holiday in a caravan in the UK.

My 9 year old hasn't had any term time holiday, but my eldest had a half day in primary and a half day in high school.

Are fines only issued for holidays of 5 days or more though?

Jagraf

Lunar_Eclipse wrote: »

Under UK law we can't. But we can choose whether they are educated at school or not. There are several ways to educate children and taking them out of school or not sending them to school at all does not mean their parents devalue education. The opposite can be true.

My children go to school and I agree it can be disruptive to remove them from school, but I often wonder why so many parents believe the UK government is best placed to decide how and what children are educated in: a class of 30 children born within a year of each other with widely varying degrees of learning speeds, behavioural traits, physical and mental capabilities, interests, strengths and weaknesses. It's not the only way.

I absolutely agree its not the only way to educate, I have no problem with home schooling.

What I do have is a problem with parents who don't understand that removing a child can be disruptive for other children, not just their own. As you say, class sizes are big. Teachers are already under pressure of having to differentiate learning because of class size and ability, with parents thinking that their child can just be removed from a maths class and be educated in flight technology or sandstorms, during term time. Imagine every one of those 30 children taking 1, 3, 5 days off during the course of a year.

We all think, for some reason, we are educational experts. Maybe soon we can also carry out lazer surgery as we know how to see.