Dentists Overcharging Patients

C_Mababejive

Does anyone know of any dentists that list on Checkatrade or similar? Perhaps they should be encouraged to list on there and we can then shop for the best value deal..

Toothsmith

BlueSkyFool wrote: »

If this has been brought up before in a thread I do apologise in advance.

Funnily enough, threads about dentistry are not that uncommon on here!

Myself and several other dentists are regulars on here (10 years in my case) and we try to help where things don't seem right, or offer explainations if people think something isn't right, but actually it is.

Things like this come up in the media fairly regularly as well. In fact, at the time you 'discovered' all this - there had been another Which? report on the issue of dental charges the week before - and Jeremy Vine had discussed it on his show the day you posted. So hardly the most earth-shattering 'discovery'

So some dentists are misleading people. Just the same as some builders do, some plumbers do, some lawyers do, some accountants do, some financial advisors do, some scientists do, some bankers do, some vicars do and - you'll never guess - there are even one or two politicians who aren't exactly honest either!

'Dentists' are not doing this - some dentists do, and it's a minority.


Now - another bit of earth-shattering news. The NHS website isn't really the most accurate of things when it comes to NHS dentistry.

You are right when you say that everything clinically necessary to secure dental health should be offered on the NHS. If a hygienist appointment is necessary for securing health, then it should be offered, or the dentist should do the equivalent work to achieve dental health.

If the gums aren't 'unhealthy' though, but there is a build up of debris & staining - then the patient could opt to pay to see the hygienist privately.

In this situation it is crucial that the dentist does give a very good explanation of the difference so that the patient knows exactly what they are paying for. If you read the threads on here about NHS patients paying for hygienist appointments you will see that in the past I have been very critical when it seems that dentists have NOT explained this well, or seem to be misleading people into paying for treatments that should be available to them.

But in your case - I don't have enough information to go on - and, to be honest, I don't think you do yet either.

I'm not sure where the £151 overcharge comes from either. What were they charged? For What? And what do you feel was excessive?

In terms of whitening - just being retired and in your 60s doesn't mean you don't want to look your best. £120 is actually a pretty good deal for tooth whitening. I charge much more!

I have whitened the teeth of people from 20 - 76 (I think was the oldest so far!).

Older people do have a bit of a resistance to spending money on themselves - thinking it to be 'a waste' - and this wouldn't be the first time an older person has been tempted to do something like this, but then when a relative has found out, become all embarrassed and pretended they'd not known what they were signing up to! I'm not saying this did happen - but it is a possibility.

So - if you would like to clarify what you feel they were 'overcharged' for, then I will happily help and advise.

If you just want a hysterical 'Daily Express' 'All Dentists Are Crooks' rant - then I'll leave you all to it.

C_Mababejive

#13 the contributions of Toothy and brooky are greatly appreciated on this forum..thats my personal view.

Sure this has been in the media recently and there was a discussion on BBC five live the other day i seem to recall?

I do think there needs to be greater clarity and i also think that the nation as a whole needs to take greater responsibility and care for their own teeth.

Prevention is better than cure and el cheapo NHS care cannot fix all ills.

Now as ive stated before i have always been a scardey cat when it comes to dentistry.

It stems from the old school clinic days.

In the 60s/70s Dentists used to rip out adults teeth for fun because there was money in it and a nice set of dentures was less trouble. People probably had worse teeth then anyway due to lack of education.

Now i agree that everyone who provides good professional service should be paid an acceptable amount for their skills be they gardener,builder,plumber,dentist,surgeon or solicitor.

The band one treatment is clearly too little for the treatment given.

Being a scardey i have always cleaned my teeth thoroughly. My new dentist is fab but he doesnt take any nhs patients. I recently paid about £50 for a checkup and combined hygiene visit plus xrays. I had a follow up for a small precautionary fill in for some extra money.i am very assiduous about cleaning as i only have one set of teeth and they have to last me maybe another 30 years.. I am happy to invest in high quality treatment.

There is a real danger that people who cant afford treatment will have poor dental health and loose their teeth. One only has to study jeremy kyle to see how many rotten teeth there are.

My dentist told me of the horrors of child tooth decay and how every week he has to send children for aneasthesia to have multiple extractions. What are their parents doing?
Feeding them carp and not educating them...

So teeth can only get worse in this country it seems...

swingaloo

I thought dentist were a professional body who had to follow the NHS charges but my hubby has just changed dentists because of this exact thing, them trying to con him.

He knew the work he needed would be Band 3 and on his first appointment (check up) was charged the price for Band 1, on his second he was charged for Band 2 (fillings) and extractions. He knew he needed a bridge and was told not to come back for 12 weeks as he had had 4 teeth removed and the dentist said his gums needed time to heal.

When he went back he was told he needed to pay £219 but he explained he had already paid part of it at his last 2 visits.

The dentist told him that because he had not returned to have the treatment finished within 8 weeks the Band started again and this time he would have to pay the Band 3 charge.

The dentist and the dental nurse stuck to this so he asked to speak to the practice manager who backed them up and insisted that his previous work was so long ago that this visit was the start of a new Band. It had been 12 weeks in total but the dentist had told him not to return for 8 weeks after his extractions.

He walked out without having the treatment and we rang NHS England. They said the dentist was totally wrong- there is no time limit on how long a course of treatment takes to complete (unless the patient persistently cancels appointments)

We rang the practice manager back and she was very evasive when we told her we had rung NHS England, she claimed 'crossed wires' and gave him a full refund. When he went for the refund they had written on the slip (as the reason for refund) 'patient not happy with NHS charges'.
I told hubby I would have got them to change that to 'been overcharged' but he was just happy to get the refund. Luckily there is no problem round here getting an NHS dentist and he has now started with another one to have the treatment completed.

brook2jack

I'm afraid NHS England is wrong and the dentist is right.

When teeth come out the gums need time to heal , three months is the standard minimum time for this to happen.The first course of treatment is to stabilise the oral condition , do all necessary fillings and extractions and hygiene work then let things heal.Then a second course of treatment three months later or longer if the bone has not finished healing for the bridge or denture.

The dentist is quite right to count this and the bridge preparation as two courses of treatment


A course of treatment cannot be held open for three months. It is a contractual obligation that courses should be completed within two months .

Unfortunately the dental contract is very complicated to understand and helplines often give wrong advice.

Where the dentists have gone wrong is if they haven't given your husband a fp17dc estimate of charges. Any band 2 or 3 treatment should involve a written estimate being given detailing what charges are due when. In cases such as bridges and dentures that need to be made after initial treatment has finished or when immediate dentures need relining after a few months it eliminates any misunderstandings.

swingaloo

If that's the case then why on the dentist wall where the charges are on display do it say
Band 3- Covers everything listed in Band I and 2, plus crowns, dentures and bridges.


NHS England where very specific about what should be quoted to the dentist when I rang back and spoke to the practice manager she told me she would take advice and ring us back. The fact that they rang back almost straight away said they were willing to refund all charges speaks volumes.



What NHS England said was that IF the dentist had put in a temporary denture or bridge and then replaced that after 6 months or so, it would start another charge, but, as they hadn't done that and they themselves had told him how long to wait before coming back for the next appointment they were not correct to say it was a new course of treatment.


The dentist had originally given him the treatment plan form form saying his treatment was a Band 3


We have also discussed it with the current dentist who has now taken over the work and they said the first dentist was totally wrong and needs reporting.


The first dentist also sent hubby to a different surgery for 2 of the extractions and told him he should be paying that dentist as well. That again was totally wrong. If its part of the same treatment plan and the dentist sends you elsewhere as part of that plan it does not incur a separate charge.

terra_ferma

BlueSkyFool wrote: »

Thank you A Phoenix of Tangerine. That was completely my intention to inform the general public of what seems to be a scam run by dentists in this country.


Clearly they are charging well out of the bands of treatment and are using sneeky loopholes to justify the charges.


My parents are going to address the overcharge next week, my dad has to go to hospital for his cancer treatment otherwise they would have gone tomorrow.


I did find out however that the sum my parents was overcharged by wasn't £500 its actually £151.00 my mistake. My mum will confront the dentist and let me know the outcome asap, Ive provided her with the evidence which is available on the NHS Website and hope that her dentist can justify the charges and if not accept he owes them a refund.


If they refuse then they need to prepare themselves for the hell fire I will reign on their backsides as I will complain, complain complain until they cough up and seriously think twice before conning my parents again.


Lets hope though the next time I need to go to the dentist they don't take revenge.

OP you have clearly stepped on some toes here...
It's useful to have all the info about pricing in one place, well done for posting, sharing information is what MSE is all about after all even when not everybody wants to hear it....
I wouldn't say that dentists as a group are ripping people off though, some are, I'm sure many aren't. But unfortunately a forum like MSE tends to hear more about the former than the latter, we all like a good moan

brook2jack

swingaloo wrote: »

If that's the case then why on the dentist wall where the charges are on display do it say
Band 3- Covers everything listed in Band I and 2, plus crowns, dentures and bridges.





What NHS England said was that IF the dentist had put in a temporary denture or bridge and then replaced that after 6 months or so, it would start another charge, but, as they hadn't done that and they themselves had told him how long to wait before coming back for the next appointment they were not correct to say it was a new course of treatment.


The dentist had originally given him the treatment plan form form saying his treatment was a Band 3


We have also discussed it with the current dentist who has now taken over the work and they said the first dentist was totally wrong and needs reporting.


The first dentist also sent hubby to a different surgery for 2 of the extractions and told him he should be paying that dentist as well. That again was totally wrong. If its part of the same treatment plan and the dentist sends you elsewhere as part of that plan it does not incur a separate charge.

The one only charge for referrals only applies if the health board/ LAT has commissioned specialist primary tier services ie the dentist being referred to has a contract for advanced mandatory services. In which case the first practice collects the charge for the whole of the treatment. However many health boards/LATs have not commissioned such services. If this is the case then a charge will have to be paid.

The placement of a temporary bridge or denture has nothing to do with whether a course of treatment is closed or not. A course of treatment is all that is necessary to secure dental health. So long as all the fillings, extractions,hygiene was carried out that is a course of treatment finished.

In a few months , if healing is satisfactory and oral care has improved and advanced treatment is indicated then a bridge , denture etc may then be prepared and fitted. Indeed under the new contract pilots bridges and crowns may never be fitted on some patients as their control of their oral health may mean they are not assesed by the computer programme as being healthy enough for crowns and bridges.


If the dentist had put all treatment down as band three on the fp17dc they were wrong as extra charges were clearly due.

On the old contract you were not allowed to fit a bridge within three months and a new course of treatment had to be opened .

Toothsmith

swingaloo wrote: »

If that's the case then why on the dentist wall where the charges are on display do it say
Band 3- Covers everything listed in Band I and 2, plus crowns, dentures and bridges.

If you were charged a Band 1 fee PLUS a band 2 fee - then that was clearly wrong - either by accident or design.

But as Brook said - NHS England also gave you wrong advice concerning time limits on treatment plans.

If a dentist is planning a treatment that will incur more than one 'segment' though, then they should be VERY clear about it so that the patient knows just what to expect.

This is one of the reasons I no longer do any NHS stuff. It's all far too complicated, and no-one knows what they're doing!

pirateyqueen

Toothsmith wrote: »

This is one of the reasons I no longer do any NHS stuff. It's all far too complicated, and no-one knows what they're doing!

Oh god. That doesn't give me much confidence for my future NHS braces and jaw surgery!