Amica Kitchen Appliance and gas cookers

Colourme

Hi
Just wanted to pop in and warn people about Amica Kitchen Appliances.

Please, please, PLEASE if you purchase any gas appliance make sure you have a working carbon monoxide alarm in your kitchen.
Two Amica gas cookers set off our CM alarm.
We had two independent gas engineers inspect the first cooker we bought (off Amica Kitchen Appliances) and both said the cooker must be faulty.
After much tutting (I'm not kidding she tutted and the person behind said, 'Oh not another one.') AKA replaced the 'faulty' cooker with an identical one. The second cooker had the same problem.
They sent their own engineer who agreed the CM fumes were dangerously high and he disconnected the cooker. But Amica will not exchange as they claim it is 'normal' and the kitchen must be too small. (We asked for a direct swap for an electric cooker of same value - note this 'new' cooker has never been used.)
We have the option of having a second vent put in but there's no guarantee two vents will work any more effectively than one vent, an open doorway, an open hatch through to a 19 foot lounge, and an open window less than three feet from the cooker. Or I suppose we could move to a house with a ginormous kitchen.
We currently have a brand new cooker which we are too frightened to sell as we don't want to risk killing anybody.

Just saying.

artbaron

Normal is zero. Any CO at all means the gas isn't combusting properly and is a defect. You should demand a refund and take them to court if they won't give it to you.

shaun_from_Africa

I would suggest that you phone the Health and safety executive:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/gas/domestic/contacts.htm

To contact the Gas Safety Advice Line freephone 0800 300 363.

and ask their advice.

I'm sure that they will be able to tell you how best to go about getting an official report about your oven and who the problem should be reported to.

Who was it that installed the ovens? as I thought that one of the checks required was a CO test after fitting.

Colourme

Thank you, both for your replies. We shall ring and ask for further advice.

At the risk of boring everybody, the full story is below.

The first cooker was fitted by a corgi-registered fitter, he tested it, and it worked okay for a few weeks, but then the alarm sounded. We replaced the alarm just in case, it still sounded. A different gas engineer (from the council) came, tested, and disconnected the cooker as faulty. AMICA argued that it must have been the way it was fitted. We called the original fitter back. He re-connected it, tested it with his instrument thingy (sorry, techy term) disconnected it again and told us to get our money back. The people at AMICA asked for his number and argued with him over the phone, like they argued with us, that he didn't know what he was doing. (Presumably they suspected the other gas engineer didn't know what he was doing either.)
As their (AMICA) engineer was on leave, they relented and replaced the cooker.
The second cooker was fitted by the original fitter (he's feeling sorry for us by now and didn't charge) but the alarm went off again.
AMICA sent their own fitter who couldn't fit the cooker without setting the alarm off either. (So that's three engineers agreeing the cooker is causing the alarm to sound.)
But AMICA continue to maintain it's the size of our kitchen and therefore we have insufficient ventilation OR we are using an 'over-sensitive' alarm because some CM leakage is normal. This 'normality' is why kitchens have vents apparently.
Oh, and we do have a gas boiler in the kitchen also, they said that was the problem too, having two gas appliances in a kitchen requires more than one vent, an open window, open door and open hatch.
Not that the two gas fitters that didn't get paid by AMICA mentioned we needed another vent. They said it was the cooker.
I think I believe the gas engineers.

Thanks again.

maninthestreet

Check the specification for the CM alarm to confirm the level of CM in ppm that triggers it to sound. How 'small' is you kitchen. The only vent in my kitchen is the one specifically for my gas CH boiler. I have no other vents in the kitchen, and I have a gas cooker as well. Maybe I should buy a CM alarm?

artbaron

Colourme wrote: »

But AKA continue to maintain it's the size of our kitchen and therefore we have insufficient ventilation OR we are using an 'over-sensitive' alarm because some CM leakage is normal. This 'normality' is why kitchens have vents apparently.

They're either idiots or they're lying, probably both. As I test I put my CO monitor right next to my unvented gas cooker and turned on two of the jets for several minutes. It read zero (it gives a digital readout of any CO > 0 but only alarms when above the threshold value, meaning even 1PPM is recorded). I also have another precise CO monitor in my enclosed boiler cabinet. Like the other monitor it records any CO reading above 0 in memory and allows you to display the highest at a later date. In two years it's never registered even 1PPM. Both monitors are fully functional. In other words, they're talking nonsense. Disgraceful, because even a small amount of CO over a long period can cause health problems.

George_Michael

It is possible for a perfectly good gas burner to give off some CO even if it's well maintained.
All it needs is for there to be insufficient oxygen available to ensure complete combustion of the gas and the result will be some CO produced.
It doesn't sound like this is the case with the OP as they have already mentioned their vents and window, but I just though that it was worth mentioning.

Colourme, can you see the flame produced in your oven or is it hidden?
If you can see it, it should be a steady blue flame with no hint of orange. Any orange flame means incomplete burning of the gas is taking place, either due to lack of oxygen or faulty burners.

Colourme

Sorry for not replying sooner. Other stuff happening (a bump in the car today) and we haven't had chance to ring the helpline yet. Hopefully tomorrow.
The original engineer did mention it might be a 'dirty flame'. At the time of connecting, the flame was only partially visible and, from what we could see, it was blue.
He waited a short time before deciding it wasn't going to 'burn off' and he said a 'dirty flame' should not happen with a new cooker as it usually occurs when food or muck gets lodged where it shouldn't. And given this cooker has never been used that's highly unlikely, unless the cooker is second hand - but it looks brand new.
Of course we can't check again now as it is disconnected. We had to sign a piece of paper to say we'd re-connect at our own risk.

We shall ring the number tomorrow and see what they advise.
Thanks again for all your help.

Colourme

Okay, just to let everybody know, this is still ongoing. Council came and fitted another fan as Amica said the kitchen and lack of ventilation was at fault. Council took an age to get around to doing it.
Anyway, alarm went off. Council sends around yet another gas engineer who disconnects cooker as it is dangerous.

Please, everybody. Do not buy anything off Amica.

Edited to add, we've spent days of our life on the phone to that number. Days.

Colourme

Final update - refund received. Phew.
Quick recap.
First gas cooker condemned as dangerous.
Replaced with second cooker - same problem and condemned as dangerous.
Two cupboards removed from kitchen to make space for vent - cooker still dangerous.
Refund.
PLEASE everybody, make sure you have a working CM alarm. Without it, the gas engineer says people might have died. Just because a cooker is brand new does not mean it is safe.