PCN Theory and Questions for the experts

Marktheshark

A single point POPLA appeal needs to try this lease one out.
Do not give them any room to wriggle on other points.

My land, I decide who parks.

Guys_Dad

When someone has a lease on a property and parking space, that is not the same as "owning" it. I am sure that most of you will understand that. - Maybe not Mark the Shark from his previous post.

A lease does give the right to enjoy the benefits of both dwelling place and parking space - but in any lease there are "subject to's" and, if you will, t&c, and the landowner is still the landowner.

The landowner will appoint a management company to manage the property on their behalf and it is in the wording of the lease (between the lessee and landowner) and the appointment terms of the agent that the rights of all parties are laid out.

It is over-simplistic to state that just because the lease does not mention PPCs that the lessee can ignore the right of the managing agent to bring in a PPC if that is the wish of the landholders and the lease does not preclude it. By including a term in the lease that the managing agent can take what measures it deems fit for the efficient running of the property, then it is a question that only a court can dictate as to what trumps what.

Digressing slightly, a close friend of mine was informed by the management company that gas fired bbqs would no longer be permitted on balconies as a result of a fire in a flat in the block. Nothing in the lease about no bbqs but plenty about the power of the management company.

Getting back to parking - I do not advocate paying parking charges issued by PPCs in a situation such as outlined here. But equally, I see no point in not displaying permits out of principle. I do believe that a lessee should either get a white list going as per previous suggestions or to inform the management company that they wished to withdraw from the "protection" of their allocated parking space.

This latter action would be quite reasonable and would give any court a basis for rejecting a PPC's ticket and a good basis for a claim against the PPC, but it would still be up to the court to weigh up whether any clause allowing the management company to introduce measures to tackle its perceived problems was a more persuasive argument than the alternative in this paragraph. And all legal action is potentially expensive,

So, rather than expose oneself to multiple tickets working on the ignore or even appeal basis purely for principle, it is far more mature and reasonable to first of all go down the white listing or "count me out, thanks", route.

Marktheshark

Owing in conjunctive, you can own a lease, own a freehold.
If you buy a lease, you own the lease, only assigned rights are in the master lease.
If neither makes mention of PPC, permits, parking conditions then the PPC have no right to conduct any business upon a leasehold the OP OWNS.

GD have you taken a job with a PPC, your tune has changed remarkably ?
Every post you are backing up PPC companies ?

Coupon-mad

Marktheshark wrote: »

A single point POPLA appeal needs to try this lease one out.
Do not give them any room to wriggle on other points.

My land, I decide who parks.

It's been tried - that loses at POPLA. A leasehold flat owner may well not 'own the space' at all but merely be allocated it and the freeholder is the landowner.

Guys_Dad

Marktheshark wrote: »

Owing in conjunctive, you can own a lease, own a freehold.
If you buy a lease, you own the lease, only assigned rights are in the master lease.
If neither makes mention of PPC, permits, parking conditions then the PPC have no right to conduct any business upon a leasehold the OP OWNS.

GD have you taken a job with a PPC, your tune has changed remarkably ?
Every post you are backing up PPC companies ?

Two things here.

1. Going to have a go a c-m as she disagrees in previous post as well? I remember at least one previous case on this forum.

From Greenslade's 1st annual report

Appellant’s ‘own’ bay
Appeals have been received where the appellant’s case is that the bay in which their vehicle was parked at the time ‘belongs’ to them, or even that they ‘own’ it, for example under the terms of the lease of their apartment. Such motorists may submit that they can thus park there without any permit needing to be displayed.
Some appellants have even sent in copies of their lease.

If the operator’s reason for issuing the parking charge notice is that resident has a permit which contains conditions as to its display, provision for visitors and so forth, this will only be known to the Assessor if the operator explains it and produces such evidence as supports their case. This is equally the case if the car park is signed to this effect.

As with other types of situation, a mere assertion that ‘all residents should be aware of the requirements’, is not evidence. However, a copy of a letter or booklet containing the terms and conditions of parking at the location and sent with the permit to the named resident, may be.

However, POPLA is not the defining body that can levy costs and I don't always agree with them - particularly today's travesty in the POPLA decisions thread.

2. To reply with answers outlining the possibilities overlooked in other posts to theoretical questions does NOT mean that I am siding with PPCs.

I do have a question for The Deep, though. You have said before that you have fought with your investment property's management company and resisted them bringing in a PPC. I applaud that. But if they had decided to go ahead, what action would you have taken personally if you actually resided in your flat rather than leased it? Again, hypothetically.

The_Deep

I did in fact inform them, (attendees at the A.G.M.), that I would not recognise the PPCs authority to issue me, my family, or my tenants, with a PCN, that I personally would not display a permit. That I would regard the MC's actions in appointing a PPC as against my best interests, and that should they appoint a PPC, and that PPC subsequently issued me, my family, a tenant, or tradesman with a PCN in my space, I would consult a solicitor with a view to taking further action.

I supplied them with lots of evidence of UKPC's m.o. , (UKPC were their preferred candidate), including Davey v UKPC and Hull Trading Standards v UKPC and said that I would, if the solicitor so advised, include them in any action I might take against the PPC.

If, hypothetically, I did live there, I would probably have tried to call a vote of no confidence against the Directors. However, as one of the directors is a Property Manager and holds multiple proxies, I would probably not have succeeded.

It should be noted that I do not own the parking space, but that it, or another, is mentioned in my lease, and the only caveat is that it must be a private car.

Guys_Dad

I approve. You gave them advanced warning and, I suspect, had they gone ahead, you would have put your case again in writing warning them of the consequences.

That is totally different from simply allowing tickets to accumulate without making your position clear and in writing. It still could lay you open to ticketing and potential court action, but equally it does put the Management Company on warning that they could as well. You also suggested that any action proposed by you would be after solicitor's advice.

That is, I trust you will agree, different from the question asked and the one I originally answered

" should I simply not bother with it and receive a ticket every time they come round in the vain hope they leave me alone if I successfully appeal them once?"

Ignatius1

jimmo2085 wrote: »

Hi,

Firstly, I have read the Newbee sticky and found it very helpful.

I have received a PCN from JD parking consultants and feel very confident in successfully appealing.

By way of background, I live (and own) an apartment with a parking management in force, in which if you don't display your permit you are landed with a ticketed PCN with the usual discount of £60 if you pay early.

As a homeowner I find this very annoying having to put a silly permit on my dashboard everytime I come home, furthermore this was only introduced this year and I lived here for 5 years.

my question to dedicated experts on this forums is as follows:

1) Can they ticket you more than once? If I simply leave the PCN on my car can they do me again and again?

2) Given that I have a permit and don't want to use it, should I simply not bother with it and receive a ticket every time they come round in the vain hope they leave me alone if I successfully appeal them once?

I really hate having to remember to put a permit on my dash to announce I'm parked in my own parking space, my fear is I could be lambasted with tickets daily if I don't!

Many Thanks,

Tom

Check your PM box.