Sun and Wind Power

abc123456

I am starting a new adventure....ie we are moving to a smallholding in a rural area, and would have the opportunity to install solar panels as well as a small wind turbine set up (good average annual wind speed).

I have read up on PV panels and the FITS and would like to have a 4kW system installed on our south facing unobstructed roof.

Subject to what the planning authorities say, I am looking into one of the small wind turbines, one of which I have seen, being a small 3 wind turbine system on the one 10m pole, giving an estimated 4kW set up. This is not an MCS product and I am aware that no FITS payment would be made.

However, is it a possibility that we could use the wind power provided to power our home, ie linked in with the existing electric supply, and use the power generated by the solar panels to generate income via the FITS?

In summary, this would be 2 sources of renewable energy coming into the house, linking into the existing electrical system...using one source of power in the home (from the wind turbines), and exporting what we do not use from the solar panel generation, and getting paid for what they generate.

I realise there is a multitude of electrical equipment involved in this "scenario", I am just wondering if it is feasible (and/or possible) to have 2 sources of renewable energy feeding into a domestic property, and using one source, whilst getting paid for the other.

Or, if this just sounds like rubbish, please tell me ! Thanks in (a sort of) anticipation. :eek:

1961Nick

It doesn't sound like too much of a problem as long as the wind & solar inverters can be tied together with the grid.

You may be better off with an export meter as the actual export is likely to be much higher than the solar deeming.

Payment would be solar FIT from the solar generation meter + export from the export meter.

Interesting project!

(All guesswork)

Martyn1981

Hiya. If we split this question into the two elements, and simply assume that the PV will get installed / has been installed.

So ...... the question is, can you add a wind turbine (FiT or not), to your property that already has PV.

Simple answer yes, you'd have a separate inverter for the wind turbine. But ...... if the PV system is 4kWp, running through a 3.68kW capped inverter, then you'll have already used up the automatic DNO approval.

To have more than 3.68kW of potential (even theoretical) export, then you'll need prior approval from the DNO. And whilst the turbine may not be MCS certified, the inverter will (of course) need UK certification, but that's not going to be a problem.

So you probably want to find out what the chances are that you can exceed the 3.68kW limit on your supply.

Mart.

abc123456

Thanks very much Martyn and Nick, very helpful and food for thought to be going on with...and all these words and phrases, ie solar deeming and DNO to look up!:T

Martyn1981

abc123456 wrote: »

Thanks very much Martyn and Nick, very helpful and food for thought to be going on with...and all these words and phrases, ie solar deeming and DNO to look up!:T

Hiya abc, and apologies. DNO stands for District Network Operator (mine is Western Power Distribution). They maintain the cables supplies etc.

Assuming you have a normal single phase leccy supply, then you can install a SSEG (small scale electricty generator) with the potential to export 3.68kW, and notify the DNO afterwards. If you install PV first, then expect this to happen, and the installer has 28 days (I think) to let the DNO know.

But if you plan to exceed 3.68kW potential, then they need to give prior approval. Depending on your location, and cabling this may be fine, or they may not allow it.

Although wind and PV complement each other perfectly, as PV has a daytime/summer max, and wind more of a nightime/winter, I'd still expect the DNO to look at the maximum that they could produce and add it together, since it's possible that they might occasionally both be maxing at the same time.

Ideally, I think you need to find an installer that can do both, explain what you hope to do, and get advice on the best way forward.

Mart.

1961Nick

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Hiya. If we split this question into the two elements, and simply assume that the PV will get installed / has been installed.

So ...... the question is, can you add a wind turbine (FiT or not), to your property that already has PV.

Simple answer yes, you'd have a separate inverter for the wind turbine. But ...... if the PV system is 4kWp, running through a 3.68kW capped inverter, then you'll have already used up the automatic DNO approval.

To have more than 3.68kW of potential (even theoretical) export, then you'll need prior approval from the DNO. And whilst the turbine may not be MCS certified, the inverter will (of course) need UK certification, but that's not going to be a problem.

So you probably want to find out what the chances are that you can exceed the 3.68kW limit on your supply.

Mart.

That's a very good point & I do believe you have to pay a few hundred quid to have a 'survey' (even if they don't actually do anything).

Martyn should know the answer to that as he has 5.58kWh?

Martyn1981

1961Nick wrote: »

That's a very good point & I do believe you have to pay a few hundred quid to have a 'survey' (even if they don't actually do anything).

Martyn should know the answer to that as he has 5.58kWh?

Damn, I went to answer, then thought, no too complicated, then you added the edit!

I'm a little out of date, as my PV extension was in 2012, but at the time I spoke to WPD (very, very helpful) and they said I could do a G83/2 application (for multi SSEG's, as opposed to a G83/1 for a single SSEG) as an add on to my existing 3.58kW system. This was free.

However, I think they took pity on me as I was chasing a FiT deadline, so did it all myself, just copying the paperwork to the installer for his signature.

I believe I should have done a G59/1 application, for which there is a small fee for domestic properties. For much larger systems the fee is bigger, and you have to pay them to pop round and watch the install too! But I'm digressing.

I only got approval as our street had recently been re-cabled, and all properties are now individually connected to the 'poles'. Before that most properties were cabled in pairs, and WPD advised that I wouldn't have got permission had that still been the case.

In abc's case, he/she(?) mentions a rural location, so the DNO may have issues over the voltage if they are at the end of a line. They may not want too much export forcing up the voltage, or the nearest transformer may not be big enough. Hopefully the DNO will give some initial advice via a friendly phone chat, you never know.

Mart.

abc123456

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Hiya abc, and apologies. DNO stands for District Network Operator (mine is Western Power Distribution). They maintain the cables supplies etc.

Assuming you have a normal single phase leccy supply, then you can install a SSEG (small scale electricty generator) with the potential to export 3.68kW, and notify the DNO afterwards. If you install PV first, then expect this to happen, and the installer has 28 days (I think) to let the DNO know.

But if you plan to exceed 3.68kW potential, then they need to give prior approval. Depending on your location, and cabling this may be fine, or they may not allow it.

Although wind and PV complement each other perfectly, as PV has a daytime/summer max, and wind more of a nightime/winter, I'd still expect the DNO to look at the maximum that they could produce and add it together, since it's possible that they might occasionally both be maxing at the same time.

Ideally, I think you need to find an installer that can do both, explain what you hope to do, and get advice on the best way forward.

Mart.

Thanks again Martyn..explained perfectly.
I (he) have also downloaded a copy of Wind Power for Dummies, so with the brilliant advice on here and the book, its the way forward !
Looking forward to seeing if this project is viable.
Thanks again, appreciated

abc123456

Following on from this "possibility"..is there any information anywhere concerning multiple wind microgeneration turbines powering a stand alone heating/hot water system (during cold windy winter months) for a small 2 bedroomed house. (House also fitted with wood stove for added heat)?

Also, regarding this 3.68kW capping, referred to by both Martyn and Nick in previous posts on this thread, does it have any bearing if the wind power is used to power a stand alone system/appliances within a residential property?

These small wind turbines I am looking at are not MCS accredited anyway, so would not be able to receive/look for any income from that at the end of the day, just the leccy !

Little bit confused......:o

SailorSam

This is an interesting read by a guy who has written books about living off-grid.

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/apr/11/power-energy-companies

Martyn1981

abc123456 wrote: »

Also, regarding this 3.68kW capping, referred to by both Martyn and Nick in previous posts on this thread, does it have any bearing if the wind power is used to power a stand alone system/appliances within a residential property?

Little bit confused......:o

I'll probably just confuse you further!

You may have some options. If the wind energy isn't connected to the grid, and is truly stand-alone, then the DNO won't care, but you will need a much more complicated set-up. Rather than just connecting the turbines to an appropriate GTI (grid tied inverter) you'll need to dump it to your heat store/system/set up. You might try this directly in DC, or put it into a large battery via a charge controller first. Whatever you do, you'll need some 'proper' advice, as I know next to nothing about this, and you'll need to consider how to control/dump generation during a blow.

I might suggest you read or join the Navitron forum as you'll find folk who are doing this, probably as off-gridders, but with respect to the wind side, that's technically what you are proposing.

Another option [warning, potential red herring] if you go for a wind GTI might be some sort of export controller like the EMMA GVS. This will only allow a certain level of export, diverting the rest to 'something' perhaps a heat store, or even reducing the output of the system - easy with PV, not sure how tricky it is with wind though.

Here's an example, just a google hit, so not a recommendation in any way.

The big but though, is I don't know if any of the DNO's have approved these devices on a domestic level allowing you to have more potential generation than their export cap - some have approved them for larger installs.

You probably need to do some research and ringing around, especially regarding mixing wind and PV and an export controller.

Mart.