Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

elantan

Oh I acknowledge you have the right to want to be spied on and every aspect of your life disected so that you feel safe if that's your wish ... certainly isn't mine

But the point I was making was the snp should not have been abstaining, they should have voted it down ... or maybe even voted for it so we can see exactly what they think ... and maybe that's the reason they abstained, maybe they agree with it but don't have the guts to say so... so instead have used the excuse they want to change it at committee stage

Generali

mwpt wrote: »

Well, I disagree with you. Surveillance works as a preventative measure. You can't avoid the question by saying it doesn't work. You just have to make the choice, lower surveillance at potential higher cost of safety, or more surveillance at potential higher cost to privacy and freedoms. I think you've made your choice, which is fine, but you should acknowledge it.

I'm tempted to quote Ben Franklyn at you, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety".

Having said that armed bank robberies have almost stopped. The reason? You can't get away from CCTV. The only people that commit them nowadays are old boys that don't know anything else.

The problem with all this stuff with surveillance isn't so much the surveillance of terrorists or even suspected terrorists it's when some idiot decides to use the same powers to check whether you are using you bins correctly.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3333366/Half-of-councils-use-anti-terror-laws-to-spy-on-bin-crimes.html

Council workers that do that are as much enemies of the British people as ISIS: they are doing far more to destroy the way of life enjoyed in the free world and should be treated accordingly.

mwpt

Generali wrote: »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3333366/Half-of-councils-use-anti-terror-laws-to-spy-on-bin-crimes.html

Council workers that do that are as much enemies of the British people as ISIS: they are doing far more to destroy the way of life enjoyed in the free world and should be treated accordingly.

What? Because of bins?

wotsthat

mwpt wrote: »

What? Because of bins?

What sort of government spies on what people put in their dustbins?

I'm playing Devils advocate here because I'd quite like them to use cameras to catch people throwing fast food wrappers from cars and have them executed. Some people dump their McDonald's waste in the car parks when a bin is 3 foot away - what's that about?

Generali

mwpt wrote: »

What? Because of bins?

Yes.

The laws get passed to catch the terrorists as this is an exceptional crime that needs exceptional powers but in reality get used to catch people putting an apple core in the recycling.

It's what happens when you give bureaucrats sweeping powers; they (ab)use them.

kabayiri

Generali wrote: »

...
Having said that armed bank robberies have almost stopped. The reason? You can't get away from CCTV. The only people that commit them nowadays are old boys that don't know anything else.
...

I worked at a place once where the expensive CCTV cameras were stolen! (that's Salford scallies for you)

Maybe more CCTV surveillance would have helped, but then does that mean they would have spotted a greater prize?

It's all so confusing

Mistermeaner

have the SNP just been shafted by the cuts to oil and gas producers?

Also any time an acolyte feels like filling in the blanks on the vision for me I would be greatly appreciative

Shakethedisease

elantan wrote: »

Oh I acknowledge you have the right to want to be spied on and every aspect of your life disected so that you feel safe if that's your wish ... certainly isn't mine

But the point I was making was the snp should not have been abstaining, they should have voted it down ... or maybe even voted for it so we can see exactly what they think ... and maybe that's the reason they abstained, maybe they agree with it but don't have the guts to say so... so instead have used the excuse they want to change it at committee stage

The short answer is that there aren't enough Tory rebels to defeat the bill at the moment. It would be passed anyway. The SNP ( and other parties ) have put forward amendments in the hope that more Tory MP's will vote against it next time stopping it being passed altogether. As far as I saw on Twitter and in other places, that's the hope. But even if not, and the bill isn't substantially revised, both in it's current form and going forward. They'll be voting against it.

You have to bear that Tory majority in mind. Opposing anything and everything just for the sake of it, turns the SNP into Scottish Labour. And we can't have that can we.

Shakethedisease

Mistermeaner wrote: »

have the SNP just been shafted by the cuts to oil and gas producers?

Also any time an acolyte feels like filling in the blanks on the vision for me I would be greatly appreciative

No.

And try here. Not that I'm a fan of this guy at all, but he at least has a go at it.

http://rattle.scot/how-to-answer-the-9-billion-question-over-independence

I expect any future Yes campaign will have other options on the table. If no Brexit, there will be a while to go yet in terms of filling in your blanks, since the SNP has committed to starting to build a new case for independence starting this summer. I assume the bulk of that for starters will be a listening exercise ( mainly those soft No's, head v's heart voters last time ).

Mistermeaner

Shakethedisease wrote: »

No.

Is that in response to the oil and gas part of my post?

On the assumption it is I was thinking along lines that any cuts to taxes paid by oil and gas producers would disproportionally affect the income derived from scotland (due to its overweighting in this sector) so that scotland would be even more dependent upon money from elsewhere in the UK to fund its spending.

IF at some point scotland goes independent it would need to reverse these changes (and then some!) to help balance its books....

Or have I misunderstood