Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

Shakethedisease

Generali wrote: »

Neither really. Most of the time since you made the point I have been sleeping, doing laundry and making breakfast for the family (raisin toast for the kids and lasagne for Mrs Generali now you ask). I saw your point but wasn't going to answer but if you want to press for one then I answer thus:

It is my sincere belief, and I suspect the belief of many English people, that Scots Nationalists are largely driven by a hatred for the English. As the SNP leadership is too savvy to leave themselves open to the very obvious call of them being racist if they use the term 'English' when talking about oppressors etc they use the term 'Westminster' instead.

It's called Dog Whistle politics. To non-SNP followers, and to the ones that genuinely don't hate the English, the word 'Westminster' sounds completely anodyne. To those that do when someone says the 'Westminster' they substitute a phrase along the lines of 'bloody English'.

All the parties engage in dog whistle politics to some extent. The Tories do it when discussing immigration for example.

Independence and the issues surrounding it have been building since slowly but surely since 1979. This in large part was down the Labour party itself.. who since Thatcher had hammered it home, again and again over many years about how Tory Westminster didn't represent Scottish views and imposed things like the poll tax, to which Scotland was 'powerless' to prevent..

Scotland kept voting Labour all through the many years of Conservative majority governments of the 1980's, 1990's. Which is why there were so many Scottish MP's in high office when Labour won again. The voters had stayed the course in Scotland despite everywhere else voting the Conservatives in for three terms..so Scottish Labour MP's were now 'long servers'. Devolution by that point was inevitable. Changing focus to Holyrood and an emergent battle between Labour, and the SNP, rather than Labour v's Tories.

Anyone who has grown up in Scotland and been of voting age since 1979.. has by and large grown up with 'Westminster is no good for Scotland'. Because when the Tories are in, Labour shouted about it loudest and longest. When Labour 'sided' with Westminster and the Tories during the ref campaign.. well, look what happened. It was a quick collapse after years of slow decline.

It is my sincere belief that you are sincere in your belief's.. but that doesn't make you right. It really IS Westminster politics people don't like, most especially when Conservatives are in power. That dog whistle has been blowing since the first referendum in 1979.. and for a very long time, it was Labour blowing the anti-Westminster whistle hardest.

Putting all of it at the SNP's feet now and calling it 'anti-english' is just easy for you. A wee 'box' to put things in. But the SNP didn't even come into play fully, with a majority in Holyrood until FOUR years ago. And putting it all in an 'anti-English' box just ignores decades of politics up until this point.

Generali

zagubov wrote: »

One wonders how much criticism of the "SNP" is driven by hatred of our northern brethren. Lots of media reports have used "Ginger" as an insult. Good job it's not an anagram of a hateword or something.

There's already talk on this forum about boycotting (or asset-stripping) Scottish organisations or companies (but obviously never the other way round).:whistle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiEUkYCuvuM

NSFW: Naughty words

Generali

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Putting all of it at the SNP's feet now and calling it 'anti-english' is just easy for you. A wee 'box' to put things in. But the SNP didn't even come into play fully, with a majority in Holyrood until FOUR years ago. And putting it all in an 'anti-English' box just ignores decades of politics up until this point.

If Labour have been using it then I would argue that Labour too in that case have been guilty of the same pretty disgraceful and frankly racist politicking. Very poor indeed and I suspect that their hubristic behaviour has led to them meeting their nemesis in the slightly unlikely shape of Mr 'Fish Face' Salmond and Ms 'Fatty Sturgeon' (or is that the other way around?).

A unionist party with a majority of MPs coming from England claiming to be anti-English contains an obvious incongruity that could never be sustained and as with anything unsustainable, eventually it stopped.

I don't claim that any of the main parties are free of Dog Whistle politics. As I say, the Tories often pander to the unpleasant socially illiberal wing of their party with thinly disguised words and actions: we have come a long way from Section 28 (which the Scottish Parliament, to their eternal credit, got rid of as one of their very first actions) but they still make apparently badly thought statements on things like immigration and Europe which are actually a signal to that wing that the Tories are still the party for that unpleasant group of nasty idiots.

skintmacflint

Leanne1812 wrote: »

Well Kevin reported it as independence at any cost. I'd imagine if this were true the MP concerned would like to state his side of this conversation.

As it stands this fits perfectly with the notion that all these crazy 'nats' think like this.

Leanne, SNP's constitution has to my knowledge always had Independence as its first and primary stated aim. The furtherance of all Scottish interests comes second.

SNP MPs are now not allowed to state anything in public, which doesn't fit with the central party line. Which I think would certainly include the constitution of the party and its primary aim.

So what different answer do you think this MP could have given in the circumstances? And survived politically?

skintmacflint

Shakethedisease wrote: »

The 'mind of a nat' ? I misinterpreted nothing. You posted a link to a blog that says that anyone who read's Wings has some sort of screw loose or mental impairment/disorder. It has nothing to do with the topic, and joke or not. Is a little insulting to one's intelligence. I'm surprised you buy into that sort of crap.. or ever think it 'apt'. 1.4 million people in Scotland ARE 'nats' or at least voted for them in May.

...and so it continues.
[/LIST]

I voted for Philipa actually. Must have had some sort of impaired flow to the limbic system and rushed to the polling booth full of unimpaired anger..

I have no wish whatsoever to do 'battle of the blogs' here. You read what you read, I read what I do. I rarely post comments from Wings here. But sometimes, there's no other source of data.. and he provides it. And does it well too.

Get over yourself Shake.

And stop quoting only the wee snippets you want to twist into what suits whatever slight you're trying to make. Or maybe you've just got into such bad habits of spin and obfuscation, you've lost the ability to read and interpret and see things in binary.

In the foreword to this blog, it states

Here is want happens to mind of a Wings ZEALOT, when they read a hyperbolically charged Wings RANT.

So we're talking about zealots.

Nobody has called 1.4 or 1.6 million Yes voters zealots or even Nats.and as I've already said not very Yes voter nor SNP voter reads Wings.

The article also specifically states 'hyperbolically charged rants'. Nowhere does it mention in this particular blog that every Wings article is a rant that I could see.

As for how you can fabricate , that this blog, specifically aimed at zealots , about Wings rants, in any way related or was critical of you when you voted for Phillipa is beyond the stretch of normal imagination.

Mistermeaner

The more this rumbles on and on (and frankly round and round) the more inclined I am to think that scotland should just go away on its own. No more Barnett a fair share of the debt and bye bye.

The thing that gives me pause for thought is that would not be fair on the 55% who wanted to stay and also tough for a huge portion of the 45% who I think voted in ignorance and have no real idea what indi would mean for them.

The Heathrow thing is interesting - for me clearly an English matter.... for reasons I won't pretend to understand it effects the Barnett formula so the snp get all !!!!y about evel ..... but this is what would happen with indi; no barnett and no say on English matters.

Cake and eat it?

elantan

Generali wrote: »

Neither really. Most of the time since you made the point I have been sleeping, doing laundry and making breakfast for the family (raisin toast for the kids and lasagne for Mrs Generali now you ask). I saw your point but wasn't going to answer but if you want to press for one then I answer thus:

It is my sincere belief, and I suspect the belief of many English people, that Scots Nationalists are largely driven by a hatred for the English. As the SNP leadership is too savvy to leave themselves open to the very obvious call of them being racist if they use the term 'English' when talking about oppressors etc they use the term 'Westminster' instead.

It's called Dog Whistle politics. To non-SNP followers, and to the ones that genuinely don't hate the English, the word 'Westminster' sounds completely anodyne. To those that do when someone says the 'Westminster' they substitute a phrase along the lines of 'bloody English'.

All the parties engage in dog whistle politics to some extent. The Tories do it when discussing immigration for example.

Thank you very much for answering it's an interesting perspective , how do you manage the dichotomy of English people etc being members of the SNP?

Generali

elantan wrote: »

Thank you very much for answering it's an interesting perspective , how do you manage the dichotomy of English people etc being members of the SNP?

As I say, not every member of the SNP, IMHO, is anti-English but many are.

IIRC, even the BNP managed to put up a candidate with Asian heritage.

I might be waaaay off the mark with this:I'm not arrogant enough to assume that I understand the motivation of every SNP candidate and voter. What I do know is that Nationalism usually sits alongside the hatred of an oppressor of some sort. Either the SNP is unique in not having that or it is the same as nationalist movements across the world. My money is on the latter.

zagubov

Generali wrote: »

As I say, not every member of the SNP, IMHO, is anti-English but many are.

IIRC, even the BNP managed to put up a candidate with Asian heritage.

I might be waaaay off the mark with this:I'm not arrogant enough to assume that I understand the motivation of every SNP candidate and voter. What I do know is that Nationalism usually sits alongside the hatred of an oppressor of some sort. Either the SNP is unique in not having that or it is the same as nationalist movements across the world. My money is on the latter.

Are all swans white? Especially where you live?;)

elantan

Oh I will deff give you there are some anti English SNP/Scot's but they are thankfully very few and if caught displaying or talking any anti English rhetoric they are usually kicked out quite fast.

It's not just the SNP though ... I have read/ listened to some right nasty anti Scottish bile by English people, I certainly don't believe all English are like that though, I know the majority of English are supportive of their neighbours, like their neighbours are supportive of them.

I am quite friendly with a lad in uni that comes from Yorkshire and we have had several talks about the whole Scotland/ England issue and the political upheaval going on here he is a Tory voter that strongly believes in trident and that Scotland should stay within the UK, he also hates Salmond ... we have dinner together once a week and go to the speakers club together so we spend Atleast 6-7 hours a week together.

It's been very interesting talking to him, he says he never ever thought of Scotland as a country it was always just Britain, he see's himself as British first then English, he says though the majority of Scot's see themselves as Scottish, some see themselves as Scottish then British and some ( very few he noted) see themselves as British then Scottish. He says when he first moved up here he suddenly realised we are a different country, we have our own identity ( he didn't say he liked it lol)

He also has found were more environmentally concious compared to what he is used to ... anyway I digress I could go on all day here ... but ultimately what I asked him to do ( and he kindly did) was to give me 25 things about Scotland that he would share with his friends in Leeds to try and explain Scotland to them, I did this as I am doing a speech on the way people brought up and living in Scotland feel about Scotland compared to how people that come from outside of Scotland feel about it.

I hope I've explained that independence for me is not about hating the English, for me it's about a country being in control of its decisions and I believe that should be for every country, it just so happens s I live in this one ... so for me I am anti WM ... the fact it's riddled with liars, thieves murderers, !!!!!phile etc just adds to my hatred of the symbol of what it is.

Sheesh I share a dinner with a Tory Trident loving no voter ... he's a lovely guy though so all's guid