Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

Shakethedisease

elantan wrote: »

I imagine the SNP membership will go up some more

2019 ? Give those Tory cuts, EVEL, crappy powers for Scotland that won't even do a full 'Smith', a vote for Trident renewal, a Burnham/Cooper leadership who'll spend the next few years mouthing off about how they'll never deal with the SNP... and the continuance of Westminster treating SNP MP's like 'parochial' idiots time to bed in ?

SNP warns Scotland could still vote for independence


Party’s Westminster leader says new referendum is on the cards if David Cameron fails to deliver promises on greater devolution ...
The leader of the Scottish National party at Westminster has suggested that the people of Scotland could vote to leave the UK in a second independence referendum within five years if David Cameron fails to deliver on promises for greater devolution and imposes more austerity north of the border.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jun/28/snp-scots-could-still-go-it-alone

Generali

Shakethedisease wrote: »

2019 ? Give those Tory cuts, EVEL, crappy powers for Scotland that won't even do a full 'Smith', a vote for Trident renewal, a Burnham/Cooper leadership who'll spend the next few years mouthing off about how they'll never deal with the SNP... and the continuance of Westminster treating SNP MP's like 'parochial' idiots time to bed in ?

The leader of the Scottish National party at Westminster has suggested that the people of Scotland could vote to leave the UK in a second independence referendum within five years if David Cameron fails to deliver on promises for greater devolution and imposes more austerity north of the border.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jun/28/snp-scots-could-still-go-it-alone

The UK voted for lower Government spending. The UK voting for something that the SNP happens to disagree with is not a signal for a referendum otherwise we are back to the Neverendum.

As hard as it may be for Nationalists to accept, they run Scotland but they don't run the UK. The Scottish people were given an opportunity to leave the UK and chose not to take it. As a result they must accept the majority decision of the UK Government when it comes to things like general taxation and spending allotments.

As for the greater devolution part, the Scotland Bill 2015 is currently at the committee stage and, as it has been given Government time and is being whipped through by the Tories will almost certainly pass through the commons.

This is its current state:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/2015-2016/0003/cbill_2015-20160003_en_1.htm

It will be amended further as it passes through committee and I expect will virtually go through on the nod at the Third Reading.

At that point the SNP will cry foul and say that it doesn't contain this or that which was 'promised' during the referendum and call for another referendum. The Scotland Bill could promise Scotland the Moon on a Stick and the SNP would still decry it.

The SNP wants a Neverendum as they know that it's a one way bet for them. It costs them nothing and if you ask people the same question enough times, eventually you get the answer you want.

The fact is that it was agreed that the referendum was a once in a generation event and nothing should change that.

elantan

A new referendum will happen soonish , I never thought I would see it in my life but give it5 years or so and I believe we will have another, I do think though the SNP and the Greens were wrong to sign the Smith commission.

If the Labour party keep up their current behaviour though they will struggle to ever get back in power in Scotland

Generali

elantan wrote: »

A new referendum will happen soonish , I never thought I would see it in my life but give it5 years or so and I believe we will have another, I do think though the SNP and the Greens were wrong to sign the Smith commission.

There was a very clear agreement by both sides: the referendum was a once in a generation event. It was not something that gets put into play every time there's a Tory Government at Westminster because the majority of Scots don't like the Tories.

If there is to be another referendum, which would be ridiculous and a complete waste of time and money, then the funds should come exclusively from the Scottish purse. I see no reason for the Welsh, NI and English to pay to decide again something that has already been decided.

Let the Scottish (SNP) Government decide what they are going to cut to pursue their vainglorious dreams.

elantan wrote: »

If the Labour party keep up their current behaviour though they will struggle to ever get back in power in Scotland

Quite probably. From what I understand from afar, Labour essentially treated the main Scottish cities as their fiefs to be divided up as the local leadership saw fit. The voters were always going to vote Labour anyway so why worry about them? Then of course the voters stopped voting Labour.

The problem now is that the SNP will end up with exactly the same problem; no effective opposition. There already seem to be signs that a cabal is taking over the SNP and attempting to prevent discussion, dissension and debate.

Worse, if Labour don't get their act together in Scotland, they may well end up delivering continual Tory Governments and perhaps coalitions to the UK. IIRC, without Scottish seats Labour wouldn't have formed a majority Government between Atlee and Blair. It seems unlikely that Labour could have remained a mass party for almost 50 years without a day in Government.

Tromking

Shakethedisease wrote: »

2019 ? Give those Tory cuts, EVEL, crappy powers for Scotland that won't even do a full 'Smith', a vote for Trident renewal, a Burnham/Cooper leadership who'll spend the next few years mouthing off about how they'll never deal with the SNP... and the continuance of Westminster treating SNP MP's like 'parochial' idiots time to bed in ?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jun/28/snp-scots-could-still-go-it-alone

The SNP tactic of constantly suggesting that Scotland is on the cusp of leaving the Union is losing much of its potency in my opinion. If another referendum does occur then the tough choices remain. All those greviances you list above will not be at the forefront of most Scottish voters minds as their pencils hover over the ballot paper I would suggest.

ruggedtoast

elantan wrote: »

A new referendum will happen soonish , I never thought I would see it in my life but give it5 years or so and I believe we will have another, I do think though the SNP and the Greens were wrong to sign the Smith commission.

If the Labour party keep up their current behaviour though they will struggle to ever get back in power in Scotland

Its good that someone has their finger on the pulse of Bournemouth's Scottish Nationalism sentiment and can report it back here.

Most of the people I know - who live in Scotland, seem to think that that ship has sailed even if they wish it hadn't.

kabayiri

Elephant in the room time : how would an independent Scotland expect to pay it's own way in a time of collapsed oil revenues?

Crucially, do they plan to make ends meet in the short/mid term by demanding continued subsidy from the UK government. If yes, what sort of level of subsidy are we talking?

I think the rest of the UK deserve to know the answer to this sooner, not later, so that we can determine the impact on the overall finances.

I could cope with the bad news of the loss of Scotland if it meant that the financial health of the rest of the UK improved significantly.

Generali

kabayiri wrote: »

Elephant in the room time : how would an independent Scotland expect to pay it's own way in a time of collapsed oil revenues?

Crucially, do they plan to make ends meet in the short/mid term by demanding continued subsidy from the UK government. If yes, what sort of level of subsidy are we talking?

I think the rest of the UK deserve to know the answer to this sooner, not later, so that we can determine the impact on the overall finances.

I could cope with the bad news of the loss of Scotland if it meant that the financial health of the rest of the UK improved significantly.

If Scotland finances were to stay as they are at present, which is not a given, the main impact on the UK of an independent Scotland would be likely to be a stream of people heading south looking for medical treatment, education and work as the Scottish Government would be bust.

Shakethedisease

Generali wrote: »

The UK voted for lower Government spending. The UK voting for something that the SNP happens to disagree with is not a signal for a referendum otherwise we are back to the Neverendum.

As hard as it may be for Nationalists to accept, they run Scotland but they don't run the UK. The Scottish people were given an opportunity to leave the UK and chose not to take it. As a result they must accept the majority decision of the UK Government when it comes to things like general taxation and spending allotments.

Yes I do see what you're getting at. However, Labour MP's in Scotland spent decades whenever the Tories were in power railing and wailing about how they had no right to impose policies on Scotland with so few ( now 1 again ) MP's up here.

Can hardly complain now that the SNP is saying the same thing. The Scottish electorate seem pretty sick of only seemingly being part of the UK when it comes to having policies imposed that they don't want..... yet not seemingly being a legitimate part of the UK when it comes to sending their own representatives to Westminster a la 'SNP threat', 'Don't let Salmond take your cash', 'aJockalypse', ' Throwing cash north of Hadrian's wall'.... Can't have it both ways really.

As for the greater devolution part, the Scotland Bill 2015 is currently at the committee stage and, as it has been given Government time and is being whipped through by the Tories will almost certainly pass through the commons.

This is its current state:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/2015-2016/0003/cbill_2015-20160003_en_1.htm

It will be amended further as it passes through committee and I expect will virtually go through on the nod at the Third Reading.

At that point the SNP will cry foul and say that it doesn't contain this or that which was 'promised' during the referendum and call for another referendum. The Scotland Bill could promise Scotland the Moon on a Stick and the SNP would still decry it.

But it's not just the SNP decrying it. It's a cross party Devolution Committee that includes Conservative, Labour, Lib Dem and Green MSP's. And the House of Commons Library itself. Both of whom state that the Scotland Bill doesn't come close to what was proposed. I expect it will go through at a nod. But it won't be what was agreed to back in Sept/November.

The SNP wants a Neverendum as they know that it's a one way bet for them. It costs them nothing and if you ask people the same question enough times, eventually you get the answer you want.

The fact is that it was agreed that the referendum was a once in a generation event and nothing should change that.

Who agreed it was a 'once in a generation' ? Salmond ? Who stated it was a personal opinion ? There's been an awful lot of water under the bridge since last year, and more to come. Events dear boy..

Shakethedisease

Tromking wrote: »

The SNP tactic of constantly suggesting that Scotland is on the cusp of leaving the Union is losing much of its potency in my opinion. If another referendum does occur then the tough choices remain. All those greviances you list above will not be at the forefront of most Scottish voters minds as their pencils hover over the ballot paper I would suggest.

Yes they will. 45% in referendum, 50% at the General Election.. latest poll 60% at Holyrood next year.

Cameron's election campaign, and the Tory obsession with austerity has worked absolute wonders over the last few months and probably over the next few years. Labour leaning voters who voted No thinking that a Labour government would be in place by now ( I personally know quite a few, and the polls back then were favourable to Labour ). Instead are looking forward to another five years of Conservatives, and possibly a further five after that... are now having to seriously re-assess.

The above Labour leaners imo, and as Generali touched on in a post above, is the Scottish demographic that will decide how any future referendum will go. Tory rule or Home rule/Independence.