Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Surrey is a region of England. Scotland is a nation within the United Kingdom. But do feel free to keep framing your comparisons in terms of Scotland being simply a region on the same basis as Surrey. It always goes down so well !
The quote mentioned constituational nations quite distinctly.



And anyway, if Scotland is to be treated mandate wise exactly as Surrey is ( ie a region ), then there should be no problem whatsoever with Scottish MP's voting on English laws. Thus, EVEL has no meaning does it ?

Either Scotland is a nation or it's a region. But you need to make up your mind which really. You keep arguing in circles using region when it suits, and nation when it suits. It can't be both regarding mandates, EVEL or anything else much for that matter regarding it's MP's in Westminster.

your comparison between a Scotland and Surrey would of course be appropriate if Surrey had the same devolved powers as Scotland


you make a very powerful case for abolishing holyrood.

Shakethedisease

CLAPTON wrote: »

I wasn't aware of a grand coalition to keep SNP out : I thought that if they were voted for by their constituents they could then sit in UK parliament and vote on matters that were not devolved.

Where have you been. There's been lots of talk about a Grand Coalition in order to keep.. and this is the newest buzzword....'insurgent' parties out of power ( UKIP included in insurgents ).

A grand Tory-Labour coalition might be good for British business

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11326547/A-grand-Tory-Labour-coalition-might-be-good-for-British-business.html

A “grand coalition” of the Labour and Conservative parties could be formed after the general election in May if neither party is able to secure a majority, Business Secretary Vince Cable has claimed.

http://rt.com/uk/222239-tories-labour-coalition-cable/

A Tory-Labour unity coalition may be the only way forward after 7 May

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/02/tory-labour-unity-7-may-national-government-constitutional-crisis

Unlikely at the moment, but who knows.

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Where have you been. There's been lots of talk about a Grand Coalition in order to keep.. and this is the newest buzzword....'insurgent' parties out of power ( UKIP included in insurgents ).


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11326547/A-grand-Tory-Labour-coalition-might-be-good-for-British-business.html


http://rt.com/uk/222239-tories-labour-coalition-cable/


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/02/tory-labour-unity-7-may-national-government-constitutional-crisis

Unlikely at the moment, but who knows.

you are becoming increasingly infantile : your nationalism is clouding your judgment and sense of fair play - long history of that sort of thing happening

skintmacflint

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Hey I agreed with you if you remember. Don't shoot the messenger. Am only reporting what I see online. But she's only one candidate.. you still haven't commented or expressed an opionion on what you think of Ian Smart's Nazi tweets a few days ago ?

What did you think of them ? I'd love to know, because if this is what's representing Labour at the present time on the internet and on tv, then I'd say the joke is on Labour...

I hadn't seen them tbh, and would say not his finest hour. But we could bat back and forward forever on this type of inadvisable comment, including Salmond and Darling making fairly similar insults, when they should know better.

But I'm not the one promoting the virtues of any political party here. SNP are the group, promoting themselves as a party of real change. With highbrow idealists and forward thinking views for a utopian fair society. Social justice and all that. So advanced it will lead the world forward.

Then putting forward a potty mouthed student , with mini me Tommy Sheridan phrases and socialist views, as a candidate for election to Westminster. For goodness sake, a couple of years ago, her family were getting Child benefit for her.

This smacks of Nicola trying to show she's all inclusive, and is ill thought out, for short term gain. Same old SNP. No change here.

Shakethedisease

.string. wrote: »

Re "gospel" - you presented the Obfuscation Document as being the answer to questions on the UK subsidising Scotland to the extent that you did not need to respond to such anymore... but I agree it is no gospel.

I'm not an economist. My point was that the figures that everyone is working off of in 'official' economic reports, are open to dispute. Especially the way tax is gathered re HQ's and exports are credited at point of exit ( and I used those as examples no more).

Yes I see to remember something about a Nobel laureate in connection with the Appendix A of the White Paper (*) aka SNP -propaganda launched of early last year. I also remember mentioning at the time that I thought the actual paper had a politician's hand all over it (or some such term) - there were errors in that document so that it had to be corrected but it remained naive and simplistic in the extreme.

There were two actually. And they did all the financial forecasts for Scotland's bid for independence. Joesph Stiglitz :- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stiglitz and Sir James Mirrlees http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Mirrlees . They were part of the Fiscal Commission Working Group who made the forecasts.

Now say what you will, I suppose their figures are as arguable as anyone else's, especially when it comes to economics ! But they are 'real' economists. Which you said they weren't.

Re the business about the UK asking officially for the EU stance on Scottish membership of the EU, you seem to think that somehow the SNP is going to twist some arms to get that done which is pure day-dreaming - the situation is as I described before quite apart from the fact that such a thing is of minor importance to the UK. The SNP will have to do its own pleading.

(*) produced at public expense. Is that legal according to Scottish Law?

I think Scots are entitled to know exactly where they stand should England vote us out of it at some point in the future, yet Scotland wishes to remain part of it. Especially with all those treaties and agreements involved.. You of course remember that if Scotland voted Yes, according to you, Scotland would be kicked out with no access to anything ?

Well if England voluntarily does that, then I think Scotland has a perfect right to know what the best course of action would be for itself, and WELL before it happens... There are a lot of jobs and industries depend on it, especially in the agriculture and fishing areas.

Shakethedisease

CLAPTON wrote: »

your comparison between a Scotland and Surrey would of course be appropriate if Surrey had the same devolved powers as Scotland

you make a very powerful case for abolishing holyrood.

NO MP has devolved powers. And all I was saying was to make up your minds and be consistent in the way Scotland is spoken about. Region or Nation. You can't do both.

Shakethedisease

skintmacflint wrote: »

I hadn't seen them tbh, and would say not his finest hour. But we could bat back and forward forever on this type of inadvisable comment, including Salmond and Darling making fairly similar insults, when they should know better.

So those sort of tweets are to brushed off as 'not his finest hour'..Ok.

But I'm not the one promoting the virtues of any political party here. SNP are the group, promoting themselves as a party of real change. With highbrow idealists and forward thinking views for a utopian fair society. Social justice and all that. So advanced it will lead the world forward.

Ditto Labour. Jim Murphy is taking over the airwaves at the moment talking about 'real change'. You can't say you haven't noticed ? Although he seems to have gotten his elections mixed up... badly.

Then putting forward a potty mouthed student , with mini me Tommy Sheridan phrases and socialist views, as a candidate for election to Westminster. For goodness sake, a couple of years ago, her family were getting Child benefit for her.

Oh I agree... not her finest hour that tweet and a few of her comments. But never mind at least she hasn't been on TV yet promoted as a high profile Labour spokesman like Ian Smart has. So at least we should be grateful for that.

This smacks of Nicola trying to show she's all inclusive, and is ill thought out, for short term gain. Same old SNP. No change here.

Nicola has to go with whatever her members vote for. And I think your mask is slipping just a wee bit. Have you always been a Labour voter skintmacflint or is it just 'strategic' for this election ?

Shakethedisease

CLAPTON wrote: »

you are becoming increasingly infantile : your nationalism is clouding your judgment and sense of fair play - long history of that sort of thing happening

And you're dangerously close to taking this forum and the debates within it far too seriously. Be careful you're not personalising things too much.

Shakethedisease

And on cue, for string re the EU...

(Reuters) - Prime Minister David Cameron said on Sunday he would like to bring forward a planned referendum on Britain's membership of the European Union from 2017 if possible.
Under pressure from Eurosceptic members of his own party and the rise in popularity of the anti-EU UK Independence Party (UKIP), Cameron has pledged to renegotiate Britain's ties with the 28-nation bloc and try to claw back powers to London.
He has said he will hold a referendum in 2017 if his Conservatives win a national election on May 7.


"If I think we could do that earlier I would be delighted. The sooner I can deliver on this commitment of a renegotiation and a referendum ... the better," he told the BBC.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/04/us-britain-europe-referendum-idUSKBN0KD07C20150104

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

NO MP has devolved powers. And all I was saying was to make up your minds and be consistent in the way Scotland is spoken about. Region or Nation. You can't do both.

Given there is no universal definition of the the word 'region' and nor is there a universal definition of a non sovereign 'nation', it is only of concern to self important fantasists, that are more interested in propaganda than the substance of differences of power.

Yes, sensible rational people can refer to Scotland as a region or a nation, as the chosen people or many other ways without impact on the issue of the how the devolution of powers should work and the West Lothian question.