Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

N1AK

Shakethedisease wrote: »

For my personal bio.. no. Nicola is well quoted about her childhood and growing up years. As is the area she grew up in.

Ok. I'll let all those remarks you made, without any ability to substantiate them stand, even though you expect a higher standard from others.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Sure...Have 5 or 6. These were all in the last week. I can't imagine that the newspapers, many Tory supporting...

I asked for a quote. You have given me opinion from newspapers. You certainly wouldn't accept it if I gave you an opinion from a newspaper as my source. Additionally the sources don't actually relate to the issue that I requested a source for: A Tory voicing all sorts of horror at the thought that Scots may vote for a different flavour of MP

Now I now, and knew full well when I first set you this impossible task that you meant something different to what you wrote. You intended to refer to Tory efforts to discourage people voting for Labour by scaring them with the idea of the SNP being in power. I think it's clear they have, and it would be trivially easy to provide sources. It does however seem more than a little hypocritical coming from an SNP supporter when Salmond put huge effort into getting pro-independence votes by using the Tory government bogeyman in a similar manner.

You and Leanne seem to be operating under the assumption that I am anti-SNP. I'm not exactly surprised. If there is one thing that is depressingly common about the pro-SNP voices heard during the referendum and elsewhere it is that they assume anyone not sharing their exact view is an enemy and must be attacked.

I will give you sources but, given the effort you will put into dismissing them, I'm going to make you earn it.

Leanne1812

N1AK wrote: »

Sorry you'll have to guide me. Was it when I said the SNP battled passionately to leave the Union that I ridiculed Alex Salmond? Was claiming he made some pretty odious remarks an example of ridicule or double standards?

Have you checked exactly what ridicule, and double standards, mean? Generally to demonstrate a double standard you would need to show how standards were applied differently.

You seemed to have started this thread posting with some measure of decorum, but the moment you've been faced with an alternative view point you have fallen back on using insults and unmerited accusations of dishonesty.

You claimed Alex Salmond made some odious remarks yet have been unable to provide evidence.

Shake has shown where labour insisted the NHS wasn't safe in an independent Scotland, only in the Union. Now they have changed that stance to insist it's only safe under a labour gov, the tories will destroy it. This seems to be glossed over, never questioned, yet any remarks or statements by SNP are picked to shreds. This is double standards is it not?

I'd also like to know where I have insulted you or others here? I try not to resort to that style of debate as it's not very constructive is it?

I'm all for alternative viewpoints.

That's why I engage in this thread :-)

N1AK

Leanne1812 wrote: »

You claimed Alex Salmond made some odious remarks yet have been unable to provide evidence.

Shake has shown where labour insisted the NHS wasn't safe in an independent Scotland... This is double standards is it not?

I'd also like to know where I have insulted you or others here? I try not to resort to that style of debate as it's not very constructive is it?

I'm all for alternative viewpoints.

Have I mentioned the NHS? Perhaps you'd like to quote me? If not, I'll accept a different example of me applying double standards with regards to the SNP... If you can't even find quotes in this thread for the accusations you throw about, why should I use my time to find quotes requiring considerably more effort, when I know you'd ignore or dismiss them anyway.

I did accuse Alex Salmond of making odious remarks. Do you really think that fits the definition of ridicule? If not, I ask for you to highlight where I have ridiculed him.

Your behavior on this thread thus far has been to be distinctly against any alternate viewpoint, and although I agree those debating techniques aren't effective, I certainly have a different viewpoint on whether you engage in them or not.

Leanne1812

N1AK wrote: »

Have I mentioned the NHS? Perhaps you'd like to quote me? If not, I'll accept a different example of me applying double standards with regards to the SNP... If you can't even find quotes in this thread for the accusations you throw about, why should I use my time to find quotes requiring considerably more effort, when I know you'd ignore or dismiss them anyway.

I did accuse Alex Salmond of making odious remarks. Do you really think that fits the definition of ridicule? If not, I ask for you to highlight where I have ridiculed him.

Your behavior on this thread thus far has been to be distinctly against any alternate viewpoint, and although I agree those debating techniques aren't effective, I certainly have a different viewpoint on whether you engage in them or not.

Gosh, you're a master of deflection........

You still haven't proved Alex Salmond made odious remarks. If you're positive he did it should be easy enough to link but no matter, I'm not going to harp on. As I said I'll assume you are mistaken.

You know it's not all about you.......when I pass comment on something it does not automatically mean I am speaking of you personally. Mostly it's a general observation about this thread as a whole or the way the SNP are portrayed in the media etc.

I never said you mentioned the NHS. What I did mention was other politicians/parties have made allegations which turn out to be false but here and the media as a whole seem to disregard or gloss over. Again, just an observation.

As far as me engaging in a slanging match with others of a different viewpoint I'd have to reiterate you are, once again, mistaken.

Shakethedisease

CLAPTON wrote: »

The scottish government controls how the scottish NHS budget is spent : it's total untrue they 'only' control admin : all the spending decisions are made in scotland. How much is spent on A&E or on cancer treatment or subsidising the rich, walk in centres or refusing to improve NHS efficiency or accepting the higher weekend death rate etc are decision made in Scotland.

Dr Whitfield used her position as a NHS consultant to deliberately cause distress and confusion particularly to the people in NE England: nothing accidental about it at.
She has NEVER apologised to the people of the NE who may well have been very distressed about the lies she told.

The have been no NHS budget cuts in England: if there are budget cuts in scotland that is due to SNP policy.

It is true that the people of scotland voted for the Scottish government NOT to control everything : you have made it plain you hate that decision in the same way you support the proven liar Whitford and continue to consider her words about the English NHS as gospel.

What do you think (now as Whitford has spoken) will be the differences between the English and Scottish NHS in 5 years time?

The Treasury control the Scottish budget, not the Scottish Governement. You're being obtuse.

As for the differences between Scottish and English NHS in five years ? One's going down the increasing privatisation route, the other in the opposite direction. Again, you know this. You shouldn't need it spelled out to you. It's common knowledge.

I'm not here to argue the various merits and drawbacks of each. Just that the differences are there.

Shakethedisease

N1AK wrote: »

Ok. I'll let all those remarks you made, without any ability to substantiate them stand, even though you expect a higher standard from others.

I'm not in the slightest bothered about what you personally 'deign' to let slide or not. The fact is that your post about Sturgeon seemingly being a well heeled solicitor... and hand picked by Salmond as evidence of some sort of middle class 'out of touch' run of the mill politician.. is untrue. And easily proved as untrue is what I was aiming at. A quick look at where she was a solicitor should've put paid to that ( Drumchapel ). And where she was brought up. You were wrong in your assumptions.

I asked for a quote. You have given me opinion from newspapers. You certainly wouldn't accept it if I gave you an opinion from a newspaper as my source.

Yes I would. Where else are you or I going to get quotes from ? Unless we interview people personally.

Additionally the sources don't actually relate to the issue that I requested a source for: A Tory voicing all sorts of horror at the thought that Scots may vote for a different flavour of MP

Question Time 3 nights ago Thursday, Anna Soubury. 'A betrayal of the English'.. go and watch.

Now I now, and knew full well when I first set you this impossible task that you meant something different to what you wrote. You intended to refer to Tory efforts to discourage people voting for Labour by scaring them with the idea of the SNP being in power. I think it's clear they have, and it would be trivially easy to provide sources. It does however seem more than a little hypocritical coming from an SNP supporter when Salmond put huge effort into getting pro-independence votes by using the Tory government bogeyman in a similar manner.

You're floundering. I've provided you with more than enough to be going along with.

[You and Leanne seem to be operating under the assumption that I am anti-SNP. I'm not exactly surprised. If there is one thing that is depressingly common about the pro-SNP voices heard during the referendum and elsewhere it is that they assume anyone not sharing their exact view is an enemy and must be attacked.

That's not true. This is a debate and discussion forum. If you're not inclined to make your points and back them up with sources. Then state that it's your own personal opinion. Neither Leanne nor I are in the least bothered by where your own political inclinations lie. Just that you seem very sure that SNP politicans are stirring up anti-English feeling. I'd suggest otherwise.

I will give you sources but, given the effort you will put into dismissing them, I'm going to make you earn it.

Please do. And no need to make either Leanne and I 'earn' anything. We post because we like to debate ( or I assume Leanne does too ). Nothing more.

elantan

Ladies ( shake and Leanne) did you attend Perth today ?

From what I gather it was a good day

Generali

Leanne1812 wrote: »

You claimed Alex Salmond made some odious remarks yet have been unable to provide evidence.

Salmond has been accused of anti-English racism in the past:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/scottish-politics/9632629/Police-asked-to-investigate-Alex-Salmonds-anti-English-jibes.html

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/steerpike/2013/09/alex-salmonds-selective-history-lesson/

N1AK

Leanne1812 wrote: »

Gosh, you're a master of deflection........

So you can't quote me for using double standards, or for ridiculing Alex Salmond after accusing me of both, but I'm the one who is mistaken and deflecting...

Well you've definitely persuaded me that I should waste my time finding quotes for you, when it's readily apparent you'll dismiss it on some spurious grounds just like you're trying to do with your false accusations.

N1AK

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Yes I would. Where else are you or I going to get quotes from ? Unless we interview people personally.

Opinion pieces in a newspaper are not the same thing as quotes. By this point I honestly can't guess whether:
> You can't tell the difference between the two
> You can but will say anything when trying to 'win' a debate
> You didn't understand most of my post but felt the need to respond anyway.

You're not engaging in debate. If you were, you would have taken the time to comprehend what newspaper opinion means. You clearly wouldn't have accepted that me pulling out something by the Mail where their columnist says Alex Salmond is anti-English as proof of anything, the fact that you just stated categorically that you would shows your lying or making responses without due consideration.

I've given you plenty of time to provide me with quotes as requested. You can't or won't, so I won't. Enjoy your echo chamber, I hope you continue to highlight the typical SNP supporters attitude on here; hopefully it will be informative for some people.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Please do. And no need to make either Leanne and I 'earn' anything. We post because we like to debate ( or I assume Leanne does too ). Nothing more.

I'd love to see you debate. So far I've just seen fawning over your idols and clumsy attacks.