Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

Shakethedisease

chewmylegoff wrote: »

The other lose/lose scenario is that the SNP hold the balance of power and get all delirious thinking they now rule the country and end up making a total hash of the position like the lib dems have (which is perfectly possible without being in a formal coalition) and destroying their voter base.

Obviously such a scenario won't be plausible in the eyes of the SNP fans here as supporting a political party is like supporting a football team for them and they think Alec and Nicola are too clever to ever mess anything up and will emerge victorious in any situation whatsoever (except of course a referendum on independence...).

Don't be melodramatic. All political parties falter at some point. Politics of here and now, are nothing like 20 or 30 years ago. I expect the same to be true in the future.

chewmylegoff

Of course there are loads of people who would support SNP type policies ex-independence. There is broad support across the whole country for left wing giveaways funded by more borrowing from the people who would receive the benefit of the giveaways but don't have to pay for them.

Thrugelmir

CLAPTON wrote: »

the SNP only want more support in Scotland for independence.

so obviously they will make unrealistic demands that they know can't be met so maybe

-reduce austerity which 'obviously' isn't working i.e massive more borrowing
-to reduce inequality : currently unspecified but presumably large increase in minimum wage, bonus caps, selective tax increases etc.
-to create a fairer society (more benefits presumably)
-to make a more progressive Scotland : more spending on Scottish infrastructure ; no reforms of the NHS or education

basically more money for Scotland

if they fail it doesn't matter because it will be the fault of 'Westminster' and if they win a bit it obviously puts them in a good light in Scotland.

broadly a win win for SNP: whether it's a win for Scotland depends upon the Scottish voters

Be another general election in less than a years time. Unless a more stable coalition can be formed. Very easy to not like austerity. However having the gumption to deal with the problems head on requires far more than just hot air.

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

They want rid of the Barnett formula. How much more fiscally neutral do you want them to be ? You're not making sense. You're getting all heated about about something the SNP want rid of too ?



They've been pretty upfront about what an out vote in an EU referendum means. If Scotland votes to stay in.

Bothered about Scotland I said. Neither, possibly after May with any significant MP representation there. Might be tempted just to cut Scotland loose as much as possible rather than put with the politics involved for the next five years.



Yes, they've been pretty upfront about the Scotland thing.. but that doesn't mean their policies won't play out well across the UK too. There are plenty saying in England, especially northwards, that they'd vote for a party with SNP policies.. ( independence apart of course ).

reducing austerity means more borrowing : that isn't fiscally neutral : it means more borrowing.

the extra borrowing will never be paid off by Scotland as the SNP doesn't support a balanced budget (hence the wish to abandon 'austerity' ) and fully intends to refuse to accept Scotland's share of the national debt when Scotland becomes independent ::another win win .

the SNP want to get rid of the Barnett formula only on the basis that Scotland keeps the current financial advantage plus extra funds from Westminster and extra devolved powers.


whether or not there is a vote on the EU within the next 5 years, the SNP will find an excuse (which you will endorse) to demand another referendum on independence. I too will support it, if there is evident support from the voters of Scotland.

If SNP policy on borrowing more, play out across the country then the Tories will be smashed and others will form a government with extra borrowing on the agenda and I'm sure Scotland will get at least it's share.

Thrugelmir

CLAPTON wrote: »

If SNP policy on borrowing more, play out across the country then the Tories will be smashed and others will form a government with extra borrowing on the agenda and I'm sure Scotland will get at least it's share.

Borrow from where and whom?

Shakethedisease

CLAPTON wrote: »

reducing austerity means more borrowing : that isn't fiscally neutral : it means more borrowing.

the extra borrowing will never be paid off by Scotland as the SNP doesn't support a balanced budget (hence the wish to abandon 'austerity' ) and fully intends to refuse to accept Scotland's share of the national debt when Scotland becomes independent ::another win win .

the SNP want to get rid of the Barnett formula only on the basis that Scotland keeps the current financial advantage plus extra funds from Westminster and extra devolved powers.


whether or not there is a vote on the EU within the next 5 years, the SNP will find an excuse (which you will endorse) to demand another referendum on independence. I too will support it, if there is evident support from the voters of Scotland.

If SNP policy on borrowing more, play out across the country then the Tories will be smashed and others will form a government with extra borrowing on the agenda and I'm sure Scotland will get at least it's share.

But that's only your opinion. And those that think austerity is the be all and end all. There are various ways of cutting the deficit, and getting things moving elsewhere via public spending.

This guy explains it better that I can when asked ( BBC ) of the SNP's anti-austerity plans and it's effects overall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIWNjldV--8

Jonathan Portes (born 18 April 1966) is a British American economist. He is the director of the National Institute of Economic and Social Research (NIESR).

Am sure other economists disagree.. but don't they always ? Economics isn't an exact science either. But the measures just now are just too black and white. Just as Nicola Sturgeon isn't 'superhuman' ( tm Generali ).. then there's no reason to assume George Osborne as always 100% right on austerity measures and policies either. Why would you, he's just a politician too.

And they won't need to demand another referendum. They'll wait until they're absolutely sure of winning the next one. Be it, 2 years, 5 or 20 from now, who knows. But probably will make sure Holyrood has an unequivocal right to call and hold the next one as part of any deal more than likely, ( as Northern Ireland can )..if anywhere near Westminster.

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

But that's only your opinion. And those that think austerity is the be all and end all. There are various ways of cutting the deficit, and getting things moving elsewhere via public spending.

This guy explains it better that I can when asked ( BBC ) of the SNP's anti-austerity plans and it's effects overall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIWNjldV--8

Am sure other economists disagree.. but don't they always ? Economics isn't an exact science either. But the measures just now are just too black and white. Just as Nicola Sturgeon isn't 'superhuman' ( tm Generali ).. then there's no reason to assume George Osborne as always 100% right on austerity measures and policies either. Why would you, he's just a politician too.

And they won't need to demand another referendum. They'll wait until they're absolutely sure of winning the next one. Be it, 2 years, 5 or 20 from now, who knows. But probably will make sure Holyrood has an unequivocal right to call and hold the next one as part of any deal more than likely, ( as Northern Ireland can )..if anywhere near Westminster.

I'm well aware of Keynes economics and the effect of spending to stimulate the economy as well as investing now for greater benefit later.

Nothing black and white; I'm simply asserting that the SNP believe in more borrowing now : nothing fiscally neutral about their views.

If that's the plan why not just say 'let's borrow even more' rather the shirting round the issue?

I'm not sure how they can 'make sure.. has an unequivocal right to call' ... etc.

Shakethedisease

CLAPTON wrote: »

I'm well aware of Keynes economics and the effect of spending to stimulate the economy as well as investing now for greater benefit later.

Nothing black and white; I'm simply asserting that the SNP believe in more borrowing now : nothing fiscally neutral about their views.

Well yes there is, because as that economist explains, there are considerable means for manoeuvre, and the deficit would still go down over the course of the parliament ?

I'm not sure how they can 'make sure.. has an unequivocal right to call' ... etc.

Oi Labour, you know that Smith commission thing ? We need a clause included so Holyrood can call the next indy ref whenever they want. Like Northern Ireland has. Just so next time there's none of this 'illegal' nonsense clogging up the airwaves... cos we would have held it anyway. Ta.

Anyway, am sure the front page of the Sun ( England/Wales only ) will bounce SNP support even higher tomorrow. Because we Scots can access the internet these days too. Absolutely appaulling stuff coming on the back of Alan Massies 'Thames running with blood', Max Hasting's rants this week and the Guardian's highland dancing incest cartoon yesterday.. Even BBC reporters and Ruth Davidson are sickened..

All turning into a little bit of a witch hunt isn't it ?

Ruth Davidson MSP ‏@RuthDavidsonMSP 41 mins41 minutes ago Seriously? In 2015? This is where we are with women in politics?

Wonder why so many women don't want a career in politics? Look no further. This genuinely sickens me.

Owen Jones ‏@OwenJones84 30 mins30 minutes ago Frothing at the mouth anti-Scottish bile from tomorrow's Sun, aka the Tory press office. The right will drive Scotland away to keep power

James Cook ‏@BBCJamesCook 19 mins19 minutes ago Max Hastings, Allan Massie, Steve Bell & now @TheSunNewspaper. The rough wooing continues! #GE2015

Jess Brammar ‏@jessbrammar 51 mins51 minutes ago Want to lead a political party? Back in your box, ladies

Laura Mitchell ‏@LauraAlice88 2 hrs2 hours ago Dear women, if you have the audacity to enter politics, we'll treat you like this.

Generali

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9284?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PollingReport+%28UK+Polling+Report%29

Frothers gonna froth.

Increasingly it looks like the Tories are pulling in front in the UK as a whole. I'm not sure the English are ready for Labour to come second in an Election and end up in Government, selling the Union out to a bunch of Nationalist zealots.

I can think of little worse than the UK being run by a bunch of extremists like that. Thankfully it's looking less likely as time goes on. Plenty of time to get that lead out to 6-7%. Given that the poll showed a 2% Tory lead, it is quite conceivable that the Tories lead in the polls by 5% (or are still a % behind by the same logic of course). It is certainly the case that the momentum seems to be with the Conservatives.

As for the picture? It's in the Sun's tradition to do this stuff. It really isn't that bad.

skintmacflint

Leanne1812 wrote: »

You keep harping on about how many have fallen for the SNP hook line and sinker. Accept that many actually like their policies & feel they are quite competent at governing. You don't and obviously you feel you're right but if you are trying to box us in as brainwashed by snp I'd have to say you are brainwashed against them. Do you see what I'm saying?

Don't disagree Leanne , because according to thousands of yes supporters opinion on social media, including the better informed, No voters particularly my age group were either traitors, selfish or brainwashed by Project fear courtesy of Westminster parties. Same difference to me.

But my biggest problem is in the fact we made the choice, but despite it being said it was a once in a generation decision, and promoted by Salmond as we will be unlikely to be given this opportunity again. Westminster had agreed to it only because they thought they had it in the bag. Final pre ref speech at Inverness. It doesn't seem to have mattered a jot.

Because even when resigning Salmond was stoking distrust with ' 'Holding Westminsters feet to the fire' . Social media is full of possibilities of UDI , rigged elections, demands for immediate rerun. All dismissed by Sturgeon until the question of EU ref decision starts. More mistrust and uncertainty.

I would have no problem with SNP ministers in Westminster if I trusted them to do their best for the UK and everyone in it including Scotland . But I don't, neither do many others. And I don't agree with the notion of badgering your MP to get as much for your constituency as he/she can get, if it damages another. There has to be balance.


So now it's up to Sturgeon to prove my fears unfounded and to show what she's made of. Including the new powers granted.