Any early years (bilingual?) teachers about?

notanewuser

Not a problem as such, just looking for some thoughts I suppose.

DD started full time nursery school in September (turned 4 in October). Here in Wales education up to year 2 (age 7) is predominantly play-based (not formal classroom learning). DD attends a Welsh-medium school and they teach no English until year 2 (they learn Welsh by immersion).

DD settled in immediately, is flourishing and her teacher and I now have a good, constructive relationship (personal beliefs aside!). DD is advanced for her age and is now bringing books home to read. As all (?) schools DD's uses phonics to teach language. As the weeks go by it's clear that DD is a "look and see" reader - her teacher agrees with this. We try and support the phonics program, but it's evident that DD just wants to know what the word is and move on rather than sit and think about the sounds.

She's starting to read Welsh and English books at home. I asked advice from DD's teacher on the English side as I didn't want to undermine the Welsh phonics (some letters in Welsh are pronounced differently to the English - eg "f" in Welsh is pronounced "v"). Teacher's response was that they don't have any interest or involvement in English so we can do whatever we like. My instinct is to let her continue with "look and see" rather than phonics, but just wondering if there are any reasons to continue with the phonics method?

So, any thoughts welcomed!

holgate79

Hi, a blending and segmenting approach to phonics is used to teach literacy in most English schools. The teachers attitude is poor and perhaps this is what your child is picking up on - if class teachers attitude is 'we will not bother trying to sound that word because it's an English word' then this will rub off on the kids.

There are other approaches to teaching literacy but phonics is used because it alows new words to be built up/ broken down /problem solved. The school obviously values a phonics approach to teaching reading and writing in Welsh - they should value it when teaching reading and writing in English too.

notanewuser

holgate79 wrote: »

Hi, a blending and segmenting approach to phonics is used to teach literacy in most English schools. The teachers attitude is poor and perhaps this is what your child is picking up on - if class teachers attitude is 'we will not bother trying to sound that word because it's an English word' then this will rub off on the kids.

There are other approaches to teaching literacy but phonics is used because it alows new words to be built up/ broken down /problem solved. The school obviously values a phonics approach to teaching reading and writing in Welsh - they should value it when teaching reading and writing in English too.

I'm not sure you've understood what I've said. (I'm very tired though!). English simply doesn't form part of the curriculum until age 7 in Welsh-medium schools. All interaction is in Welsh. DD seems to be able to adapt to that, but she just isn't interested in building the sounds. If you spell a word out to her she can write it perfectly and will remember it forever. I'm not expecting the teachers to provide English education - her teacher is actually extremely good - and am happy to take her lead at home with "look and see" but don't really want to undermine the school's approach.

duchy

I do think kids are quite good at adapting to an attitude of things are done differently in different settings so especially as they are two languages and she appears comfortable seperating them anyway (and maybe a different method for each language helps her seperate them anyway)

notanewuser

duchy wrote: »

I do think kids are quite good at adapting to an attitude of things are done differently in different settings so especially as they are two languages and she appears comfortable seperating them anyway (and maybe a different method for each language helps her seperate them anyway)

A bit, I suppose. DH has started learning welsh too and I'm dusting mine off - she gets sent home with things we can talk about and practice and I'm needing it to work out what she means when she sings the songs she's learned. :rotfl:

tyllwyd

I come from an English speaking family and in the 70s in Wales, I went to a primary school where English and Welsh were both used although we were only taught English. I don't remember being confused between the two languages, although I never saw Welsh written down so I was just parroting phrases (it was a revelation to me when I started learning Welsh properly in secondary school!)


I shouldn't worry too much about it - my two daughters (in England) are both very good readers, but neither were really that bothered about phonics - they learnt it because they were taught it, but I wouldn't say that was what they based their reading on. I would say that you should carry on encouraging your daughter to look at books in both languages - she can learn English & Welsh phonics at school, and then if she wants to she will have the skills to decode words, but if she knows what the words are already, she won't need to use the phonics.

notanewuser

tyllwyd wrote: »

I come from an English speaking family and in the 70s in Wales, I went to a primary school where English and Welsh were both used although we were only taught English. I don't remember being confused between the two languages, although I never saw Welsh written down so I was just parroting phrases (it was a revelation to me when I started learning Welsh properly in secondary school!)


I shouldn't worry too much about it - my two daughters (in England) are both very good readers, but neither were really that bothered about phonics - they learnt it because they were taught it, but I wouldn't say that was what they based their reading on. I would say that you should carry on encouraging your daughter to look at books in both languages - she can learn English & Welsh phonics at school, and then if she wants to she will have the skills to decode words, but if she knows what the words are already, she won't need to use the phonics.

They aren't taught any english phonics in school full stop (I assume something happens at 7). She'll be reading well before they introduce any english reading when she's 7 at the rate she's going!

I had a similar education to you in the 1980s. It's completely different this way around.

She's had letters (sounds) sent home to word build. One word was "mam". So she did "m-a-m" once. That's it, word learned. But when she went to school the teacher wanted to see her break it down into the sounds. She wanted to show that you can change "mam" into "ham", "jam" and "sam" and "mat", "hat" and "cat". After a few times of her being frustrated that the teacher wanted her to break it down again I mentioned it to the teacher who agreed she was better off with "look and see", but as they aren't doing formal learning as such I'm not sure they're going to attempt it for the Welsh.

The English side is entirely down to us. The school provides no resources or device for learning English below the age of 7. End of.

I suppose I don't want to cause DD unnecessary stress by "letting her" do it the easiest way she can at home in one language - she might reject the phonic method even more strongly if I do!

daivid

Is your concern that your daughter will become hostile to learning Welsh phonetically if you teach her English through word recognition? Or is it that learning English the way she prefers with you will cause issues when the school starts teaching English at age 7?

If its the former I think she will still be ok as she will associate the two approaches with the two languages and Welsh suits phonics much better anyhow. Furthermore the teacher seems balanced and accepts that when a word is know it can sometimes be left at that instead of badgering the child to sound out a word they know perfectly well.

With the latter I think there is even less cause for concern. At the start of KS2 the school will expect pupils who are reading confidently in Welsh to adapt quickly to reading English without having to 'learn' to read all over again. Your child and many if not most others will be reading English outside of school anyway so why would they go to the trouble of teaching children something they already know? Some work on phonics and sounds may be done but this would be more to help with pronunciation as opposed to going through the rigmarole of learning all the sounds, sounding out, blending...

Phonics is not the be all and end all, many people have learned to read without them. If your daughter is happier using look and see for English then run with it, if you want her to develop a love of reading then its the way to go! Hope this is of some help.

notanewuser

daivid wrote: »

Is your concern that your daughter will become hostile to learning Welsh phonetically if you teach her English through word recognition? Or is it that learning English the way she prefers with you will cause issues when the school starts teaching English at age 7?

If its the former I think she will still be ok as she will associate the two approaches with the two languages and Welsh suits phonics much better anyhow. Furthermore the teacher seems balanced and accepts that when a word is know it can sometimes be left at that instead of badgering the child to sound out a word they know perfectly well.

With the latter I think there is even less cause for concern. At the start of KS2 the school will expect pupils who are reading confidently in Welsh to adapt quickly to reading English without having to 'learn' to read all over again. Your child and many if not most others will be reading English outside of school anyway so why would they go to the trouble of teaching children something they already know? Some work on phonics and sounds may be done but this would be more to help with pronunciation as opposed to going through the rigmarole of learning all the sounds, sounding out, blending...

Phonics is not the be all and end all, many people have learned to read without them. If your daughter is happier using look and see for English then run with it, if you want her to develop a love of reading then its the way to go! Hope this is of some help.

Thank you!!! Your first point was my concern. She adores reading (and writing) and I want to encourage that but can just see that she's really not liking phonics! I think her teacher is softening her approach now, so hopefully it's all good.

dingdongavoncalling

I'm not sure I fully understand your concern either.

I realise DD is doing well for her age and bringing books home, is she being taught phonics at school? If not, and she won't be until 7, perhaps she is just not ready for this approach. It doesn't mean she cannot bring books home to read and enjoy using other techniques.

I would focus on the enjoyment of reading at that age. A love of books is so important

tyllwyd

notanewuser wrote: »

Thank you!!! Your first point was my concern. She adores reading (and writing) and I want to encourage that but can just see that she's really not liking phonics! I think her teacher is softening her approach now, so hopefully it's all good.

Your daughter sounds quite like my youngest - she had trouble with glue ear at that age, so I'm pretty sure she didn't really hear the differences between the phonic sounds very clearly. But with the early phonic books she just memorised the words - we had a strong suspicion she wasn't reading the words using phonics but since she was getting it right we couldn't stop her! I do think the first stages of phonics are boring for kids who take to reading easily, but hopefully once they move past that it will be better.