Tenancy Question

scrummy_mummy_2

Not so, but without evidence, the LL is not in a strong position.


In response to Notlob (and with respect) I totally disagree.
If the LL has cleaned a property (or parts of it) himself prior to a tenant moving in (to whatever standard) it is referred to as 'domestically clean'.
Obvioulsy the standard of this will vary enormously as what one person thinks is clean is another's nightmare!
If a professional is called in and services are paid for it is termed 'professionally clean'.
The distinction would be that a private indivdual who cleans the property may not do it as 'thoroughly' as a company who trades on this as their business focus and has access to indusrial equipment such as truck mounted carpet cleansers and strong chemicals/cleansers. A professional clean implies that there is a minimum standard to which the operator will clean and thus (supposedly) there will be more consistency in the level of cleanliness.

From what we have been told by the OP, at best, the OP moved into a property which was only (poorly) domestically clean (as there were no receipts for professional work.)
By having it cleaned professionally before the OP leaves is thus cleaning it to a higher standard than it was received in and could be considered betterment.

kodokan

Franklee - does the Section 21 notice work both ways? For example, if it's served at the start of a six month tenancy which then rolls over into periodic, say the tenant wanted to leave after another couple of months - would the tenant have to give the normally required full rent month's notice, or can they just leave at any time..?

(Obviously this isn't very nice of the tenant, but let's stick to the legalities for now!)

Thanks in advance.

kodokan

Notlob

Scrummy,

My issue was more with your claim that there was some legal requirement in all this, nothing more.

Notlob

Bungarm2001

quote; It doesn't explain the SoD as that is a loophole in the way the landlord serves the S21 notice. I.e. the landlord serves this notice routinely to all tenants even when he doesn't want the tenant to leave! This is not the way it was meant to be used.

I totally agree. This is why I won't do this.

quote: The S21 notice does not require a reason, it's a no fault no reason needed notice. It is not conditional in any way, and if the landlord makes it conditional on the tenant's behaviour then he is effectively withdrawing it anyway.

What I meant was, some LL's use it as soon as they can mainly to get troublesome tenants out. They never actually mention the real reason why they want the property back. They don't have to after all..or have I got that wrong??

As I say, I haven't used a S21 yet. I've been lucky so far I guess. Any problems I've ever had with tenants has been sorted out amicably between ourselves in most cases. I am a firm believer in keeping everything as friendly as possible to try to remove the 'them and us' syndrome. I personally feel that this attitude goes a long way and that is possibly the reason why we get very few problems.

Of course, having said that, things could all go pear shaped tomorrow!! or the next day...:eek: :rotfl:

PS Sorry about the weird way of quoting your posts...haven't got the hang of things on here yet

franklee

kodokan wrote: »

Franklee - does the Section 21 notice work both ways? For example, if it's served at the start of a six month tenancy which then rolls over into periodic, say the tenant wanted to leave after another couple of months - would the tenant have to give the normally required full rent month's notice, or can they just leave at any time..?

Absolutely, it works both ways. Once the fixed term has ended and the notice period of the S21 has expired, typically for the SoD S21 that will be the last day of the fixed term anyway, then the tenant doesn't have to give notice.

If it's a SoD S21, i.e. a S21 that the landlord doesn't intend to action yet, then the tenant won't be asked to leave, he'll just be left thinking he is on a periodic tenancy. But in reality the tenant can leave whenever he likes without giving notice. But the tenant should hand the keys over properly so there is no argument about which day they left.

kodokan wrote: »

(Obviously this isn't very nice of the tenant, but let's stick to the legalities for now!)

Well the SoD isn't nice as it leaves the tenant living without their rights to two months notice from the landlord only often the tenant doesn't ever realise this.

Lavendyr

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I have a related question...how to tell if there is an S21 in the AST? Is it specifically referred to as Section 21 of the Housing Act? Reading that linky above I get the understanding that it's not permissible to serve an S21 in the AST, it must be served after the tenancy commences, but I'm not sure I have the right understanding of the legalese.

Also we have a clause in our contract giving notice with regards to Ground 2, Part I of the Housing Act 1988 - which as far as I understand it means that the landlord must still give us two months' notice, but *if* the landlord wanted to live in the property (he actually used to live in the property before letting it out) the court is required to order possession to the landlord - not that the landlord can just kick us out whenever he likes. I take it thats' not an S21?

Thanks in advance for help

franklee

Bungarm2001 wrote: »

What I meant was, some LL's use it as soon as they can mainly to get troublesome tenants out. They never actually mention the real reason why they want the property back. They don't have to after all..or have I got that wrong??

You are right, when using the S21 the landlord doesn't have to mention the reason why he wants the property back.

Bungarm2001 wrote: »

As I say, I haven't used a S21 yet. I've been lucky so far I guess. Any problems I've ever had with tenants has been sorted out amicably between ourselves in most cases. I am a firm believer in keeping everything as friendly as possible to try to remove the 'them and us' syndrome. I personally feel that this attitude goes a long way and that is possibly the reason why we get very few problems.

Agreed, that good attitude would count for a lot with me. Conversely a landlord serving a SoD S21 would be throwing all goodwill from me out the window and I would not be able to settle in his property. I need the full two months notice to arrange moving and could not live without it so if he refused to withdraw the S21 in writing I'd have to move.

Lavendyr wrote: »

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I have a related question...how to tell if there is an S21 in the AST? Is it specifically referred to as Section 21 of the Housing Act? Reading that linky above I get the understanding that it's not permissible to serve an S21 in the AST, it must be served after the tenancy commences, but I'm not sure I have the right understanding of the legalese.

Some landlords do include the S21 in the AST, I believe clutton does for example. I would agree with you that this is invalid as the S21 must be served after the tenancy has started. Normally an S21 is a separate sheet of paper clearly headed something like Section 21 Notice Requiring Possession.

Lavendyr wrote: »

Also we have a clause in our contract giving notice with regards to Ground 2, Part I of the Housing Act 1988 - which as far as I understand it means that the landlord must still give us two months' notice, but *if* the landlord wanted to live in the property (he actually used to live in the property before letting it out) the court is required to order possession to the landlord - not that the landlord can just kick us out whenever he likes. I take it thats' not an S21?

Not having seen your AST I would assume the clause isn't actually giving you notice under Ground 2 but merely saying you *may* be served it. If you are actually served notice this way it would be by serving a Section 8 notice.

A section 8 notice has different grounds (reasons) for possession. Some of these grounds can only be used if the tenant has been given prior notice that they may be used. They are called prior notice grounds There are different notice periods required depending on the ground. Ground 2 is two months notice. The full list is here:

http://www.letlink.co.uk/letting-factsheets/factsheets/factsheet-8---claims-for-possession-the-section-8-notice.html

So the clause is giving you prior notice that ground 2 *may* be used. If it is used you will be served a Section 8 notice citing ground 2 which will give you two months notice.

kodokan

franklee wrote: »

Absolutely, it works both ways. Once the fixed term has ended and the notice period of the S21 has expired, typically for the SoD S21 that will be the last day of the fixed term anyway, then the tenant doesn't have to give notice.

If it's a SoD S21, i.e. a S21 that the landlord doesn't intend to action yet, then the tenant won't be asked to leave, he'll just be left thinking he is on a periodic tenancy. But in reality the tenant can leave whenever he likes without giving notice. But the tenant should hand the keys over properly so there is no argument about which day they left.

Thank you for this, very interesting. Of course, we're always model tenants, with a good professional relationship with our agent/ landlord - but we're moving again later this summer, and you never know in the future...

Thanks.

kodokan

(Ooops, quote thing didn't work properly, but you get the idea.)

franklee

kodokan wrote: »

Thank you for this, very interesting. Of course, we're always model tenants, with a good professional relationship with our agent/ landlord - but we're moving again later this summer, and you never know in the future...

Yes I am too. But it's the landlord's choice to serve an S21. If he does that even though he doesn't actually want the tenant to leave (the Sword of Damocles) then that is his choice. Therefore it is only reasonable for him to expect the tenant to leave without notice as he has put that mechanism in place, albeit to deprive the tenant of notice. The landlord can't expect to have his cake and eat it. Although reading the forum on this I think perhaps some do and of course there are good landlords that don't use the SoD . What a pity the good landlords don't always get the good tenants and vice versa.

scrummy_mummy_2

If.....she said taking breath with the whole SOD approach to landlording...you do serve a S21 at the time a tenancy begins, it must be done as follows:

1. It cannot be included with the Tenancy agreement...it must be a separate document as it must be in a prescribed format.
2. The Tenancy Agreement MUST be signed, dated and the time of signatures noted FIRST
3. The S21 can then be served, but you must annotate that the S21 was served AFTER the tenancy Agreement was signed for it to be legal.

Don't do this myself, but am aware how to do it 'properly' should I ever need to.