Contractual payment charge

spikyone

bazster wrote: »

Could also try a contract cancellation:

Surely this is even less likely to work where the parking charge is contractual (as opposed to a breach of contract)? I still don't buy into any suggestion that you can retrospectively cancel a contract after it has 'ended' (because you've vacated the car park), but this is even worse because a "chargeable" event has already taken place. It's a bit like paying someone to install a new kitchen for you, then after the event (but before you've paid) sending them a cancellation of contract. Frankly I'd be amazed if this is permissible within the wording, or even the intent, of the regulations.

spikyone

Damn, beaten to it by GD!
:beer:

bazster

spikyone wrote: »

Surely this is even less likely to work where the parking charge is contractual (as opposed to a breach of contract)? I still don't buy into any suggestion that you can retrospectively cancel a contract after it has 'ended' (because you've vacated the car park), but this is even worse because a "chargeable" event has already taken place. It's a bit like paying someone to install a new kitchen for you, then after the event (but before you've paid) sending them a cancellation of contract. Frankly I'd be amazed if this is permissible within the wording, or even the intent, of the regulations.

Evidently neither of you has read the regulations.

Firstly, it could only work where the charge is allegedly contractual. Where there is no agreement to pay then the regs aren't applicable.

Secondly, the regs expressly cover this scenario (cancellation "after the event"), and they are clear:

36. (1) The trader must not begin the supply of a service before the end of the cancellation period provided for in regulation 30(1) unless the consumer—

(a)has made an express request, and
(b)in the case of an off-premises contract, has made the request on a durable medium.

36. (6) The consumer bears no cost for supply of the service, in full or in part, in the cancellation period, if—

(a)the trader has failed to provide the consumer with the information on the right to cancel required by paragraph (l) of Schedule 2, or the information on payment of that cost required by paragraph (n) of that Schedule, in accordance with Part 2, or
(b)the service is not supplied in response to a request in accordance with paragraph (1).

Seems crystal clear to me. If (i) the trader failed to supply the prescribed information regarding the right to cancel or (ii) the consumer did not make an express request for the service then "the consumer bears no cost for supply of the service".

Your kitchen example is a good one, because it's exactly the same: if the trader installs the kitchen without having given the prescribed information re right to cancel, or without receiving an express request, then the contract can be repudiated and no payment made.

The whole point of the regs is to protect consumers from being inveigled into a contract without realising it, which is exactly what PPC's do. Such protection would be utterly pointless if the trader could simply turn round and say "yeah I know I didn't comply with the regs, but it's done now so tough."

Guys_Dad

Not sure you have all the relevant bits there, bazster.
From the same government document

Information to be provided before making an on-premises contract
9.—(1) Before the consumer is bound by an on-premises contract, the trader must give or make available to the consumer the information described in Schedule 1 in a clear and comprehensible
manner, if that information is not already apparent from the context.
(2) Paragraph (1) does not apply to a contract which involves a day-to-day transaction and is performed immediately at the time when the contract is entered into.
(3) Any information that the trader gives the consumer as required by this regulation is to be treated as included as a term of the contract.

and also

36.—(1) The trader must not begin the supply of a service before the end of the cancellation period provided for in regulation 30(1) unless the consumer—
(a) has made an express request, and
(b) in the case of an off-premises contract, has made the request on a durable medium.
(2) In the case of a service other than supply of water, gas, electricity or district heating, the consumer ceases to have the right to cancel a service contract under regulation 29(1) if the service has been fully performed, and performance of the service began—
(a) after a request by the consumer in accordance with paragraph (1), and
(b) with the acknowledgement that the consumer would lose that right once the contract had been fully performed by the trader.
(3) Paragraphs (4) to (6) apply where a contract is cancelled under regulation 29(1) and a service has been supplied in the cancellation period.
(4) Where the service is supplied in response to a request in accordance with paragraph (1), the consumer must (subject to paragraph (6)) pay to the trader an amount—
(a) for the supply of the service for the period for which it is supplied, ending with the time when the trader is informed of the consumer’s decision to cancel the contract, in
accordance with regulation 32(2), and (b) which is in proportion to what has been supplied, in comparison with the full coverage of
the contract

Putting common sense into play, it can not be legislated that when someone contracts for a service and uses it , such as, for example, 10 minutes sun bed use, you can cancel after being on the sunbed for the session. Starting the service implies the contract has started and as the regulations say "the consumer ceases to have the right to cancel a service contract under regulation 29(1) if the service has been fully performed".

The argument by the PPC is that once the motorist actually parked, they made a non verbal decision to start the service.

However, if the contract was for 1 hour sunbed use to ba taken over a number of sessions, then there might be the opportunity to argue for a cancellation of the contract for the unused sessions.

Sam would apply to using a child minder. You can't just not pay for the 4 hours she looked after your child, but could cancel further days.

This does not mean that I believe that a valid parking contract was entered into, only that if one did exist, you can't cancel it after the service was provided.

bazster

.......................

bazster

Guys_Dad wrote: »

Putting common sense into play, it can not be legislated that when someone contracts for a service and uses it , such as, for example, 10 minutes sun bed use, you can cancel after being on the sunbed for the session.

That is precisely what has been legislated. If it was a distance or off-premises contract (unlikely in the case of a sun bed) then, if you didn't make an express request for the service in a durable medium, or you weren't given the prescribed information on your cancellation rights, then you can indeed cancel even after the service has been fully supplied.

Guys_Dad wrote: »

Starting the service implies the contract has started and as the regulations say "the consumer ceases to have the right to cancel a service contract under regulation 29(1) if the service has been fully performed".

But only if performance of the service began after a request by the consumer in accordance with paragraph (1)

Furthermore:

Paragraphs (4) to (6) apply where a contract is cancelled under regulation 29(1) and a service has been supplied in the cancellation period.


And:

The trader must not begin the supply of a service before the end of the cancellation period provided for in regulation 30(1) unless the consumer blah blah blah

Guys_Dad wrote: »

The argument by the PPC is that once the motorist actually parked, they made a non verbal decision to start the service.

That would indeed be their argument, and their argument would fail because parking in the vague vicinity of a sign can by no stretch of the imagination be taken as an express request by the consumer, still less a request in a durable medium - and such signs never carry information on the right to cancel.

Guys_Dad wrote: »

However, if the contract was for 1 hour sunbed use to ba taken over a number of sessions, then there might be the opportunity to argue for a cancellation of the contract for the unused sessions.

Nope, the entire contract can be cancelled.

Guys_Dad wrote: »

Sam would apply to using a child minder. You can't just not pay for the 4 hours she looked after your child, but could cancel further days.

You certainly can refuse to pay, if (i) you didn't make an express request for the service or (ii) you weren't given the prescribed information.

Guys_Dad wrote: »

This does not mean that I believe that a valid parking contract was entered into, only that if one did exist, you can't cancel it after the service was provided.

You certainly can.

You disappoint me GD. For someone who is normally so ridiculously pedantic, on this occasion you are reading what you want to read and not what the regulations actually say. There's no point in discussing this further unless you are going to read the regulations with your eyes open.

The_Deep

bazster wrote: »

Try opening your eyes and reading it GD. If that's the best you can do then there's really no point in discussing it.

Hang on Mr B, how can you cancel a contract, (not necessarily parking specific), that has been completed?

bazster

Someone else who clearly can't read:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/contents/made

Coupon-mad

The_Deep wrote: »

Hang on Mr B, how can you cancel a contract, (not necessarily parking specific), that has been completed?

But you can, within 12 months, because they didn't comply with the Regs, didn't get express consent - so it's (arguably) null and void and cancellable. It's what I have been saying for a couple of months - you can! The Regs say you CAN cancel afterwards. It's there to protect the Consumer against sneaky contracts (sound familiar?!); these are new EU Regulations and they are pretty far-reaching.

The example of the sunbed is different because I would expect that signed 'express consent' is obtained first from the customer (they'd be mad not to get a customer to sign a disclaimer, and must comply with these Regs if the cost is over the minimum in the Regs which is £40 or £50 IIRC).

'Rental of a Parking space' IS covered, and these charges are always over £50.

The_Deep

bazster wrote: »

Someone else who clearly can't read:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/contents/made

Oh I can read Mr B, very well in fact, you do not get an Oxford MA and pass the Foreign Office exams if you are illiterate you know.

How about you try to be less of a !!!!!! and I will try to be less snippy.