NOT BUYING IT! 2015 - A consumer holiday

GreyQueen

cheeseontoastwithham wrote: »

I have just been reading the start of this thread and would like to state a few things about capitalism and why it is actually a fairer system.

1) Capitalism makes the government be more efficient and careful with our money and only spend it on necessities.
2) As lots of industries are not owned by the state, our taxes are lower than ever before (remember Laour's 96% tax in the 70s??) and we have the choice as to which gas, electricity or phone company we use - it is not imposed on us by some government that we didn't vote for.
3) It is based about the principle of individuals looking after and spending their own money rather than the government - it gives more people freedom and is far more democratic.
4)People always complain about companies making 'profits' but the great thing about capitalism is that you can just not buy from that company - you can't in a socalist economy as there is no such thing as choice.

Sorry to get into a political debate early in the morning but I feel I must get the benefits of capitalism across and there seem to be lots of misconceptions!!

I hope your tongue is firmly in your cheek or I shall be a bit worried for you, going forward with such innocence in this wicked world.

1. Capitalism works by exporting itsexternal costs onto the rest of us and the environment. Company A makes throwaway containers for the fast food industry and is capitalistic, and it's MaccyD (or whomever) who uses them, and Joe Consumer who purchases fast food in them. Then Joe puts them in a streetbin (emptied by labour paid for by council tax), throws them on the street (picked up by labour etc) or puts them in their household waste (ditto) where it ends up in landfill paid for (you're probably ahead of me here) by council tax. So Joesephine Consumers like me who never eat junk food get the costs of that capitalist business model externalised onto us.

Think cars which pollute and kill thousands a year and wreck the health of millions. It isn't the car companies who are picking up the tab for that.

2. Our taxes aren't lower than ever before. Very rich people'staxes, and corporation taxes, are lower than before. The tax burden of regular folks is very high. I take home just over £10k and have deductions from gross of tax and NI which are about 20% and lose another 8% tax off my net income (council tax band A) and then another 20% vat on most stuff I buy. This is low?! I don't think so.

Yes, we now have choices of utility provider. Big deal when they are effectively a cartel and there is very little price variation between them, so you can shop around (I do) but it's a bit like rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic; you can do it if you like but it doesn't effect the outcome. And can I shop around for water? Nope, I'm stuck with my regional water utitlity unless I move about 100 miles. No competition there. Oh, and if you can look far enough back, you will see that the deregulation of the utitlity companies was foisted on us by grubbyments (conservative) which had less than half the electorate's vote, so hardly a shining example of democracy in action, hey?

3. In theory, you can own and look after your own money. That little bit you are left with after your masters have taken their cut. And you can spend it how you wish in a market entirely defined by their rules, their priorities and paying their taxes and tariffs. That's like sending a kid to the sweetie shop with a small amount of money and telling them they can choose between this, this and that, and them feeling v.grown-up because they've got choices..........

While you're shopping, thinking about future shopping, or paying back debt from previous shopping, your democratically-elected leaders are hand-in-glove with the capitalists working out how best to screw you over, in return for some nice little directorships now and promises of much more gravy to come when the retire from the mother of parliaments..........:rotfl:

4. Of course companies should make profits. Who here has complained about that, did I miss something? If people want to pay £50.00 for a small tub of chemical gloop which cost 0.10 to produce, £1 to package and £2 million to advertise as the latest wonder face cream, that's their business. Just don't be under the illusion that most of this vaunted capitalism is a good thing. And maybe, just maybe, think twice before putting your hardearned through the tills of tax-dodging coffee chains, clothing retailers and the zero hours employers.

Oh, and as someone who deals with housing benefit and council tax reduction, I can't tell you (literally can't but it's a lot) how many people who are employed in retail and hospitality for so few hours and at such parlous wages that they are needing constanly weekly infusions from the benefits system to survive. So capitalism gets to be topped up by social welfare payments and individual capitalists get rich off the backs of the rest of us paying taxes to pay benefits to prop up their uneconomic business models. Capitalism is a leech.

And as to choice, look closely. You'll see that you can buy either identical, or just about identical Stuff, from different stores, at the same time, for just about the same price, to the penny. Some other things appear to be different, as in have different brand names, but the innards are the same as the innards of other things, they roll off the same production lines. I've worked in factories which packaged stuff for everyone from the premium stores to the cheapest cheapy shops and the only difference in most products was the outer wrapper. You've been conned.

But I wouldn't worry about it, there will always be a place in this world for the easily-led amongst us. Not necessarily a comfortable, secure or happy place, but you pays your money and you takes your choice. And now I have to go to w*rk.

fuddle

Misconceptions? I don't see what is wrong with an individual stating that the money they have will work for them, not be squandered, will be used to invest rather than throw away and to find frugal ways to do the job, cheaply.

to some of us milk and miners hit us bliddy hard!! You can't just poo poo the idea because it's been done to death. Why, when we're all getting on really weell, have taken part in a lovely thread about OS ways/principles of not buying it does someone have to come along and start the debate and bring politics into it.

cheeseontoastwithham

GreyQueen wrote: »

I hope your tongue is firmly in your cheek or I shall be a bit worried for you, going forward with such innocence in this wicked world.

1. Capitalism works by exporting itsexternal costs onto the rest of us and the environment. Company A makes throwaway containers for the fast food industry and is capitalistic, and it's MaccyD (or whomever) who uses them, and Joe Consumer who purchases fast food in them. Then Joe puts them in a streetbin (emptied by labour paid for by council tax), throws them on the street (picked up by labour etc) or puts them in their household waste (ditto) where it ends up in landfill paid for (you're probably ahead of me here) by council tax. So Joesephine Consumers like me who never eat junk food get the costs of that capitalist business model externalised onto us.

Think cars which pollute and kill thousands a year and wreck the health of millions. It isn't the car companies who are picking up the tab for that.

2. Our taxes aren't lower than ever before. Very rich people'staxes, and corporation taxes, are lower than before. The tax burden of regular folks is very high. I take home just over £10k and have deductions from gross of tax and NI which are about 20% and lose another 8% tax off my net income (council tax band A) and then another 20% vat on most stuff I buy. This is low?! I don't think so.

Yes, we now have choices of utility provider. Big deal when they are effectively a cartel and there is very little price variation between them, so you can shop around (I do) but it's a bit like rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic; you can do it if you like but it doesn't effect the outcome. And can I shop around for water? Nope, I'm stuck with my regional water utitlity unless I move about 100 miles. No competition there. Oh, and if you can look far enough back, you will see that the deregulation of the utitlity companies was foisted on us by grubbyments (conservative) which had less than half the electorate's vote, so hardly a shining example of democracy in action, hey?

3. In theory, you can own and look after your own money. That little bit you are left with after your masters have taken their cut. And you can spend it how you wish in a market entirely defined by their rules, their priorities and paying their taxes and tariffs. That's like sending a kid to the sweetie shop with a small amount of money and telling them they can choose between this, this and that, and them feeling v.grown-up because they've got choices..........

While you're shopping, thinking about future shopping, or paying back debt from previous shopping, your democratically-elected leaders are hand-in-glove with the capitalists working out how best to screw you over, in return for some nice little directorships now and promises of much more gravy to come when the retire from the mother of parliaments..........:rotfl:

4. Of course companies should make profits. Who here has complained about that, did I miss something? If people want to pay £50.00 for a small tub of chemical gloop which cost 0.10 to produce, £1 to package and £2 million to advertise as the latest wonder face cream, that's their business. Just don't be under the illusion that most of this vaunted capitalism is a good thing. And maybe, just maybe, think twice before putting your hardearned through the tills of tax-dodging coffee chains, clothing retailers and the zero hours employers.

Oh, and as someone who deals with housing benefit and council tax reduction, I can't tell you (literally can't but it's a lot) how many people who are employed in retail and hospitality for so few hours and at such parlous wages that they are needing constanly weekly infusions from the benefits system to survive. So capitalism gets to be topped up by social welfare payments and individual capitalists get rich off the backs of the rest of us paying taxes to pay benefits to prop up their uneconomic business models. Capitalism is a leech.

And as to choice, look closely. You'll see that you can buy either identical, or just about identical Stuff, from different stores, at the same time, for just about the same price, to the penny. Some other things appear to be different, as in have different brand names, but the innards are the same as the innards of other things, they roll off the same production lines. I've worked in factories which packaged stuff for everyone from the premium stores to the cheapest cheapy shops and the only difference in most products was the outer wrapper. You've been conned.

But I wouldn't worry about it, there will always be a place in this world for the easily-led amongst us. Not necessarily a comfortable, secure or happy place, but you pays your money and you takes your choice. And now I have to go to w*rk.

Do you work for the Labour Party?? Of course I am entitled to my opinion - do not call me naive - I have lived through a 1960s and 70s Labour governement who tried to eradicate capitalism and consumerism with disasterous results. I understand and accept your point of view, however I would not start critising people like that.

cheeseontoastwithham

fuddle wrote: »

Misconceptions? I don't see what is wrong with an individual stating that the money they have will work for them, not be squandered, will be used to invest rather than throw away and to find frugal ways to do the job, cheaply.

to some of us milk and miners hit us bliddy hard!! You can't just poo poo the idea because it's been done to death. Why, when we're all getting on really weell, have taken part in a lovely thread about OS ways/principles of not buying it does someone have to come along and start the debate and bring politics into it.

I would also say that there is nothing wrong with having a 'debate' - it is interesting to see what others have to say. Also, feel free to change the subject - you can just let me waffle and not respond if you like!!

surfsister

Slowdown wrote: »

Hi,
I have a declaration to make.
I'M NOT BUYING IT!
And now I'm hyperventilating. I have finally laid my cards on the table. And I mean for the whole of 2015!

Calm, calm.

I am a confused woman. On the one hand I rally against rampant capitalism. I hate the cabals and monopolies, I despair at the tricks and underhand approaches used by companies to make us buy. I fling my hands up in despair at the waste and destruction of our planet and yet....I buy it! I shop, I waste, I yearn and save and spend in a cycle that traps me in all the ways I hate, and worst of all, I am not true to my own feelings.

Well, IT STOPS in 2015.

I openly declared my intentions to my DH last night.
"It must stop," I sputtered, "I m not doing this buying nonsense anymore," I exclaimed, "I'm purchasing the necessaries and nothing more. Your presents will be second hand, clothes will be second hand, no haircuts, no new shoes, no kitchen gadgets, no anything I don't need. I'M NOT BUYING IT!"
This last bit was literally spat out in loud gasps.

He looked at me and smiled. "That's good," he said. "I'm joining the Green Party!"

And so preparation begins. The money spending stops as of Jan 1st. Only what we need will be spent. OS money saving will be top of my list. I will be drawing on the power of the penny punchers on this thread on a daily basis.

I have one month to prepare myself and the family. I need to think about the rules, what is and is not allowed. I need to build in flexibility so I don't shoot myself in the foot. I need to get my head around the whole idea. And I need help. From you good folks.

And on that note I'm off for a shower, where I shall ponder on the gravity of my words.

Kind regards
Slowdown

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good decision! I've done it and it works!! I took all my hoarded stuff out of drawers/cupboards etc and just used them and didn't buy anything unless it had run out. I ate out of the freezer and cupboards and only then began to replenish stuff it saves a fortune which you can spend on treats or for a bigger item. Also, it saves times wasted shopping - we met friends for cream teas/coffee or the cinema instead - much more fun or long walks with a pub meal after.

once you start it's quite easy to stick to. good luck.

tru

I'm not getting into a political debate on here, it's not the place. But silly H&S laws, EU rules, etc have restricted people far too much for far too long. This site is about people being in charge of their own money, rather than the money being in charge of them. And threads like these take that a bit further by being full of info on how to stretch the money even more.

Price fixing is one thing that springs to mind right now, eg milk. Why do our laws (written by politicians) allow greedy supermarkets (the bad kind of capitalists) to rip off farmers when it comes to milk? Yes I know not all farmers are skint, but when you have farms that have been run by the same family for generations being told to sell their milk at a loss or lose everything, you get a bit angry at the world. You have people who want to support milkmen but maybe can't afford to because Iceland sell milk for 89p for four pints. So the milkman has to put up his price again because he's lost a few more customers, eventually he has to give up his business and claims JSA. Double whammy - he's now not paying tax but is also taking out of the system. Benefits bill goes up, government spending on something else has to be cut and we all end up losing.

That's just milkmen, imagine how bad it would be if it happened to every local business.

thriftwizard

Not responding would indeed be my response-of-first-choice; I don't think the OP or all the people who have welcomed the thread with open arms are up for a political debate, let alone one that seems to be limited to the tired old left/right mudslinging match that has got us into this mess.

I have cause to be travelling to that well-known Swedish emporium today, to invest in a piece of furniture chosen to fit an exact need and the small space available, and a rug as a present for my fledgling home-buyers. It's budgeted for and I have the cash for both and a bit over for lunch (it's a 30-mile drive from us) so - will I escape without buying anything I don't mean to buy?! Can I resist? Part of me will be watching myself with great interest...

purpleshoes_2

cheeseontoastwithham wrote: »

I think you are right - however I would blame the last Labour government just as much (if not more) than the bankers as they clearly did not enforce the regulations or have any idea what was going on. Also, it amazes me that companies can just set up in Luxembourg or the Cayman Islands to 'avoid tax', that is what seems wrong and needs to be changed - but no doubt nothing can be done due to the evil European Union with its President saying 'Luxembourg is not a tax haven' - what a joke!!

This is not the thread for debates about capitalism. I am neither a labour nor conservative voter and you are entitled to your opinions but some people including myself do not have a lot of spare cash right now and people could preach the benefits of capitalism to me until the cows came home, it would not make a blind bit of difference to my life.

Let the thread carry on the way it was, a nice supportive thread about how people are going to make changes next year.

grunnie

Change of subject - I spent all of last weekend tidying out my wardrobe. I took everything out and wiped down the paintwork. I tried on every item and made a decision whether I would wear it again or not. So several bags off to the CS yesterday and thinner friends who like my clothes.
You were mentioning grey hair - mine has been going grey for the last 30 years and I wish it would hurry up. My sons girlfriend gets her hair streaked to the same colour as mine . I hate going to the hairdresser and when all my friends go once a week I only go about 4 times a year for a trim.
I had the last of 4 Christmas meals out last night and got a very pretty cup and saucer in a display box from the secret santa. Before this thread I would have just stuck it in a cupboard but not now I am drinking my tea from it.

Minimalist

cheeseontoastwithham wrote: »

I have just been reading the start of this thread and would like to state a few things about capitalism and why it is actually a fairer system.

1) Capitalism makes the government be more efficient and careful with our money and only spend it on necessities.
2) As lots of industries are not owned by the state, our taxes are lower than ever before (remember Laour's 96% tax in the 70s??) and we have the choice as to which gas, electricity or phone company we use - it is not imposed on us by some government that we didn't vote for.
3) It is based about the principle of individuals looking after and spending their own money rather than the government - it gives more people freedom and is far more democratic.
4)People always complain about companies making 'profits' but the great thing about capitalism is that you can just not buy from that company - you can't in a socalist economy as there is no such thing as choice.

Sorry to get into a political debate early in the morning but I feel I must get the benefits of capitalism across and there seem to be lots of misconceptions!!

Welcome to the thread, cheeseontoastwithham

I have to agree with Tru’s point about traditional / contemporary capitalism - what we have now is a perverted version of Capitalism, in which costs and risks are socialised, whilst profits are privatised. Take for example the recent debacle with the EastCoast rail franchise (nationalised due to the failure of the previous franchisee) which was turned around under state ownership and is now an efficient and profitable service. It’s being handed over to Virgin Trains to wreck, as they did the Cross Country service. Virgin will have the monopoly on services from the north to London - exactly how is that giving me (as a northerner with frequent work visits to London) choice? Supermarkets have reduced choice in many areas by putting smaller businesses out of business - and now they are whining because shoppers have exercised consumer choice and voted with their feet to shop with less exploitative outlets.

This thread is about spending wisely - most of us are not in a position to abandon shopping entirely! I’m not anti-business or anti-entrepreneurship by any means - I’m just against anti-profiteering, and against companies being over-protected at public expense. Mega-corporations are not acting in people's interests and sadly governments are losing their powers to limit their power (e.g. Philip Morris v the government of Uruguay http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/big-tobacco-puts-countries-on-trial-as-concerns-over-ttip-deals-mount-9807478.html).

Corporations should not be “too big to fail” - if they have effectively failed. Personally I like to spend my money (where possible) with small businesses, where the money is spent locally, often going to other local traders - rather than being hoovered off to some tax haven.

Tax cuts under Thatcher were funded by selling off public assets and north sea oil revenues. Had the UK done as Norway did (establish a sovereign wealth fund instead of tax cuts) our economy would be on a much surer footing today.

I have to say there was nothing socialist about the Blair / Brown government - Thatcher said that New Labour was her greatest achievement. The policies and discourse of the major parties today are not really that different from each other, which is part of our country’s problem.

The “choice” over which utilities provider is an illusion which doesn’t really confer value for money on the “consumer" - prices are kept artificially high as companies have to sustain payouts to their shareholders; the “market” element introduces waste into the system (advertising/marketing, administration of changing accounts, duplication of services etc).

Privatisation has pushed down wages for many people (e.g. engineers in electricity providers) - people may be paying less tax, but their overall salaries have decreased, not to mention their wage security now that zero-hours contracts are all the rage.

As someone who has worked in both public and private sector, I think both have their strengths - but an area of massive waste and unfairness is the outsourcing of government contracts to the highest bidder. The huge costs of tendering - on both sides (i.e. taxpayer’s money too) - means that only the largest companies are in a position to bid, cutting smaller specialists (with actual expertise) out of the picture.

Please don't get me started on the marketisation of the NHS (first enabled by Labour legislation)