German Kitchen recomendations

Ramona123

Having a bad day Ryder?

ryder72 wrote: »

Ramona123- you have just demonstrated how little you know about kitchens and Germans.

1. A French car designed to look German doesnt make it German. Same applies for the kitchens. OP wants a German kitchen for its build quality.

2. Blum is not German. Its Austrian. Nor is Grass, one of their biggest competitors.

3. Kessebohmer is one of the bigger wirework manufacturers but there are some good ones from France and Italy.

4. PWS supply mainly foil/vinyl wrapped doors under the Second Nature/Metric/1909 (or similar) name. They may be the best foil wrapped doors around, but thats like saying a certain type of flu is the best to get. The correct thing to do is avoid it in the first place. Foil and Vinyl wraps should be avoided in the same manner.

I wont say any more.

DirectDebacle

Ramona123- you have just demonstrated how little you know about kitchens and
Germans

.

Ryder please share your knowledge with us.

You make some interesting observations but produce no evidence to support your claims on the build quality of German kitchens.

Dealing with the mass market, mass produced, chipboard kitchens please explain how the German carcasses are significantly better than any other manufacturer.

Is it not correct that the basic material, furniture grade chipboard is produced to strict EU/UK standards in three grades, namely P1, P2 and P3. P2 and P3 are used in kitchen carcass manufacture. P3 has the benefit of having some marginal moisture resistance whereas P2 has none. Virtually all manufacturers will offer a 25 year guarantee on this material.

Given that furniture grade chipboard is the lowest grade particle board available for furniture production and methods of joinery are inherently weak, how are German carcasses significantly superior to others? If a high end German (or any other country for that matter) carcass of the same size costs e.g. 3 or 4 times that of a non German competitor, explain where you think the "better quality" is to justify the increased cost.

ryder72

This topic has been done to death so i would refer readers to previous posts going back 3-4 even 5 years.

Apart from carcase thickness, factors such as carcase density, level of moisture resistance, type and quality of edging, squareness, numbers of dowels, quality of assembly machinery determine the quality of the end product.

Our German supplier has just invested 11mn Euros in a new edging line to offer laser fused edging on doors and carcases. Such a line doesnt yet exist in the UK and yet a number of German suppliers are already using this technology. Are you saying that all the investment results in nothing by way of improved product?

As a point of note, German manufacturers (and I speak for ALL of them) do not price carcases and doors seperately. They offer a unit complete with handle and plinth so there is no real carcase to carcase comparison available.

Further, the notion that German carcases are 4-5 times dearer is a myth, probably by British manufacturers content in peddling mediocre product and unable or unwilling to make the investment into appropriate machinery.

Yes German furniture will never compare with the likes of the sheds, Howdens etc. Its way head in quality and specification.

SuzieSue

ryder72 wrote: »

Yes German furniture will never compare with the likes of the sheds, Howdens etc. Its way head in quality and specification.

It is worth paying for a German kitchen if you live in a mansion or if you are planning to stay in your home for 20 years plus. Otherwise a decent quality ordinary kitchen is more cost effective as most people will want to replace the kitchen when they buy a property.

SuzieSue

martin1959 wrote: »

I wish I could buy a good solid British built kitchen that is reliable, stylish, and reasonable value. But the reason I have been driving BMW's and VW's for the past 15 years is that the Germans know how to build something that lasts.

I agree with most of what you are saying except for this. I don't think that VWs and BMWs are much better than other European manufacturers, they just have a much better marketing machine. Mercedes is head and shoulders above other manufacturers though (except when they had the problem with rust a decade or so ago).

martin1959

Now don't get me started on cars...lol


Every car I have had from a UK manufacturer (even if produced abroad) has had some kind of rattle or squeak. The first car that did not was a Volvo. All my subsequent cars have been 'noise' free, and by coincidence, German.


Of the UK demo show kitchens we have viewed (B&Q Howdens, etc) faults we have noticed include....


soft closers that do not work
drawers that catch
Wirework that catches
Doors out of alignment
Unequal gaps


Now forgive me for being sceptical, but would you not think that sellers would ensure that the demo kitchens are faultless. If they cannot get it right when they are trying to show you how good a product is, what chances have you got of everything being perfect after installation.


I have not noticed any such faults on the German kitchens I have looked at. Are they better made? or are the showrooms selling them more particular about what/how they display.


The cabinets only account for about 40% of the cost of a new kitchen (whatever cabinets you go for you still have the costs of worktops, fitting, tiling, electrics, plumbing, appliances etc) so paying double for German cabinets will only add about another 15-20% to the overall kitchen cost.


Before anyone shouts at me, I appreciate that many could not afford 'an extra 15-20%' but as we are fortunate enough to be able to cover this, and this will be our home until we are carted out in a wooden box (or the kids get us into a home), we feel buying German is the way to go.


Thank you all for your comments so far, whether we agree or not, it is interesting.

ryder72

Finally the voice of reason.

I think what you see in the DIY sheds or builders merchants is the real bottom of the barrel stuff. Magnet etc should be the next step upwards and they are just as poor.

Independents selling British kitchens put on a better show generally but for prices similar to or not far off what you pay for Sheraton/PWS/Mereway you start to get German products. Even the entry level German products will offer you more choice of units, better design coordination, good attention to detail, higher quality and most importantly you are buying from a specialist who knows what he/she is doing.

That does not mean designers in sheds are bad, but generally they have a very limited range of product to play with and are more sales driven. Just to put it into perspective, our German product is offered in 2 base unit carcase heights for handled standard kitchens and in addition offer 2 true handleless options in 2 carcase heights as well. The planning catalogue over the handled and handless ranges are a total of about 600 pages.

paddyrg

Bulthaup any use? Not entry-level, but serious quality, and German.

DirectDebacle

ryder72 wrote: »

This topic has been done to death so i would refer readers to previous posts going back 3-4 even 5 years.

Always worthwhile cutting through the marketing hype the kitchen salespeople spout on here.

Apart from carcase thickness, factors such as carcase density, level of moisture resistance, type and quality of edging,squareness, numbers of dowels, quality of assembly machinery determine the quality of the end product.

But you are merely regurgitating marketing mush you have been brainwashed to believe. The carcasses are made from the same grade of chipboard whether in Germany or not, as explained to you. You haven't justified the claims you make in respect of alleged superiority of German carcasses.

Our German supplier has just invested 11mn Euros in a new edging line to offer laser fused edging on doors and carcases.Such a line doesnt yet exist in the UK and yet a number of German suppliers are already using this technology.
Are you saying that all the investment results in nothing by way of improved product?

More marketing rubbish. Waxing lyrical about a new machine but pointedly not claiming product improvement. I expect this info came on a flyer from your supplier to let you know it would lead to improved margins.

As a point of note, German manufacturers (and I speak for ALL of them) do not price carcases and doors seperately. They offer a unit complete with handle and plinth so there is no real carcase to carcase comparison available.

More evasiveness. If that is true what happens when a customer scratches a handle, door or bit of plinth. Do you charge them for the whole unit and just send a handle (if that is what was scratched) or send the whole lot? Sounds like overselling coupled with poor customer service.

Further, the notion that German carcases are 4-5 times dearer is a myth, probably by British manufacturers content in peddling mediocre product and unable or unwilling to make the investment into appropriate machinery.

Again attempting to sidestep the issue. I suggested they were 3 to 4 times the price, which you don't appear to be disputing. Again you repeat the marketing hype that German carcasses are superior to British but haven't as yet produced any evidence to substantiate your claim.

Yes German furniture will never compare with the likes of the sheds, Howdens etc. Its way head in quality and specification.

It seems you have just demonstrated how little you know about quality furniture. Anyone who thinks chipboard kitchen carcasses are in any way representative of top quality furniture either doesn't have a clue about furniture or has a vested interest in convincing others that it is.

Of course whether you buy a chipboard kitchen from Germany or anywhere else chances are you will not be getting value for money.
Prices for kitchen units vary considerably and are often driven more by appearance than by the technical specification.


I hope the OP is pleased with his purchase and it meets with his expectations.

ryder72

DirectDebacle -

I am not going to grace your rubbish with a long winded reply except to say that if you do not understand a simple comment as

the notion that German carcases are 4-5 times dearer is a myth

then there is little point in having a discussion. You can continue to live in your cynical world assigning little intelligence to the rest of the world around you. I bet you have load of friends too.


In a perfect world, everyone would have solid wood or plywood carcases. In that world, everyone would have a kitchen with 1-2 units as anything more would be plain unaffordable. It is therefore logical and common sense that a product made from affordable material and suitable for purpose is manufactured and chipboard solves this problem adequately. Yes it wont work for an underwater material, but your special requirements require special solutions.