Leasehold/freehold confusion

ED20

Any help re: our current situation would be much appreciated:

We have made and had an offer accepted on a a terraced house which we believed to be freehold. Vendor and estate agents both believed property to be freehold. Following some research by myself prior to completion of buying property have discovered that the property is actually a leasehold. Very few details of the current freeholder are available, have contacted the land registry but unable to get much info at all eg. lease document, details of ground rents etc. Lease is over 800years though which is reassuring.

Same freeholder appear to own most of the freeholds on the street, registered about 1904.

My question is what should we do!? we love the house and are really disappointed to find that it is a leasehold. Ideally we would want to purchase the freehold but feel this may be difficult given that the freeholders info is patchy at best, that vendor had no idea property was leasehold?! and that the freeholder seems to own freehold of multiple houses, would it even be possible to buy the freehold of only 1 property?
Not keen to proceed with purchase and shell out on large solicitors bills if buying of the freehold isnt an option.

any help/ advice/ guidance would be very much appreciated!

thank you

Emma

G_M

What detail exactly does the LR show?

What is the name of the freehold title proprieter? Address?

You say 800 year lease - does it give start date? Registered in 1904 or lease start date 1904?

Any lease restrictions mentioned in the LT Title???

Are you doing own conveyancing or using a solicitor?

Have you knocked on other doors in the street yet? When you do, along with the standard quesions, ask if they know any more about the ground rent/other lease requeirements.

You cannot make a decision without more information, though my instinct is this is not a show-stopper.

ED20

thanks for reply!

knocking on doors was going to be our next step.

LR shows details of freehold registered in 1904 which is the date the 999year lease commenced. There are names of 2 people with whom the freehold was registered in 1904 but i assume they would now be deceased. No lease restrictions in the title document bbut the LR state they are unable to locate a copy of the actual lease, which is concerning as it could have numerous restriction etc which we would be unaware of until we bought the property. And even then a lease document may never be found

It does appear that the freehold perhaps passed to about 4 other people in 1991 (shown on the document from the LR) but no addresses etc available for these people, and we also believe two of these to be deceased aswell. We just find it hard to believe that current vendor thinks she owns a freehold but does not. Surely her conveyancing solicitor would have found the same info we have, it only took us about 10 minutes on the internet?!

ED20

*section of the LR Title document*

A: Property Register
This register describes the land and estate comprised in the title. Except as mentioned below, the title includes any legal easements granted by the registered lease but is subject to any rights that it reserves, so far as those easements and rights exist and benefit or affect the registered land.
GREATER MANCHESTER : MANCHESTER
3 (27.08.1991) Short particulars of the lease(s) (or under-lease(s)) under which the land is held: Date : 3 November 1904 Term : 999 years from 25 December 1904 Rent : £19 Parties : (1) James Boddington Leigh and Andrew Redfern (2) Edwin Pye NOTE: The lease comprises also other land
4 (27.08.1991) By an Assignment of the land in this title and other land dated 28 June 1906 made between (1) Edwin Pye and (2) William Leigh the land in this title was informally exonerated from the rent reserved by the Lease.
5 (27.08.1991) The land has the benefit of the following rights granted by a Transfer of the land in this title dated 11 July 1991 made between (1) Wilfred Leigh, Kathleen Alys Blakeley and John Edmund Blakeley and (2) Eugene Francis Ryan:-
"TOGETHER WITH the benefits so far as the Transferors can grant same a right of way over and along the footpath to the rear of the dwellinghouse hereby transferred over the neighbouring properties in Victoria Road"
NOTE: Copy Transfer plan filed.
6 Unless otherwise mentioned the title includes any legal easements granted by the registered lease(s) but is subject to any rights that it reserves, so far as those easements and rights exist and benefit or affect the registered land

G_M

Corrections to your post:

ED20 wrote: »

LR shows details of leasehold registered in 1991 which is the date the 999year lease was registered at the Land Registry. There are names of 3 people with whom the leasehold was created in 1904 (Two would have been either buyers or sellers of the lease, the other would have been the seller or buyer). but i assume they would now be deceased.(see below) No lease restrictions in the title document bbut the LR state they are unable to locate a copy of the actual lease, which is concerning as it could have numerous restriction etc which we would be unaware of until we bought the property. correct.And even then a lease document may never be found

It does appear that there was [STRIKE]freehold perhaps passed to about [/STRIKE]a transfer involving 4 other people in 1991 (shown on the document from the LR) but no addresses etc available for these people, and we also believe two of these to be deceased aswell. !

You are looking at the leasehold Title.

What is the name of the freehold title proprieter? Address?

xylophone

Have you had a look at the deeds for the properties on either side of the one in which you are interested?

ED20

This is the only kind of title deeds available from the LR. No other details of freeholder known, no address etc.

We have asked the vendor to go and inquire with the adjoining houses in her street re: their leasehold/ freehold situation. Also she is pursuing the solicitor she used to purchase the property 10 years ago as it seems that they have not been aware/ informed her of the leasehold. How this is possible im still unsure, especially given that it took us about 5 minutes to find it in the internet

The whole thing seems very complicated

G_M

ED20 wrote: »

This is the only kind of title deeds available from the LR. No other details of freeholder known, no address etc.

If the freehold Title has not changed hands since compulsory registration in the 70s/80s, it may not be registered with/available from the Land Registry.

But I'm surprised it did not have to registered in 1991 at the same time as the lease...

Perhaps the Land Registry Rep (or someone else) will be along and can confirm if a Leasehold Title can be registered without the Freehold Title also being registered.

tizerbelle

It may be leasehold but don't panic. Leasehold does not = bad news.

Yours appears to be a traditional lease - long term; low ground rent and assuming there are no further clauses - the maximum ground rent is set at £19 per annum and even better according to clause 5 in 1906 an agreement was made whereby it appears the property leaseholder isn't required to pay the ground rent anyway. (Probably goes some way in explaining why the vendor isn't aware of the lease)

Leaseholds of this nature generally don't have any provisions for increasing the ground rent, applying service charges or anything else and certainly my experience in Greater Manchester has been that they are pretty much considered the same as having a freehold property.

My lease? 999 years from 1885 at £1.2s.10d (£1.14) per annum. I have no issue with traditional leaseholds. Modern leaseholds with multiplying ground rents/service charges built in - wouldn't touch them with a bargepole.

Don't stress too much about this. Yes, get it checked out thoroughly but I think it will all work out good in the end.

peter3hg

G_M wrote: »

If the freehold Title has not changed hands since compulsory registration in the 70s/80s, it may not be registered with/available from the Land Registry.

But I'm surprised it did not have to registered in 1991 at the same time as the lease...

Perhaps the Land Registry Rep (or someone else) will be along and can confirm if a Leasehold Title can be registered without the Freehold Title also being registered.

My house has a registered leasehold but an unregistered freehold. The only real effect is that I only have a good title instead of absolute. My ground rent is about 80p in today's money dating from 1854 but I doubt it has been collected in over 100 years.

Land_Registry

The last couple of posts cover the issue of the freehold not being registered. IN cases where a leasehold is registered but no evidence as to the landlord's ability to grant the lease is provided, Good Leasehold title is often the end result. You have not mentioned that re this property so I suspect that is not an issue.


The short particulars of the lease refer to it as being a 1904 lease so the parties as shown (1) and (2) were the original parties to the lease, which you already appreciate.


The 1991 Transfer relates to the sale of the lease itself (not the freehold) and it looks as if this triggered the first registration of the leasehold title. The Transfer also granted the right of way as mentioned but no transfer of the freehold took place.


The key issues would normally be the class of title, namely Good or Absolute, and then the lease itself.


You refer to our not having a copy of the lease so do the current owners have a copy as I assume one was produced when the title was first registered and as such a copy passed on to the current owners by the seller?


On the issue of an apparent lack of awareness I would add that in cases where there are 999 year leases, the freeholder cannot be located and the lease was apparently exonerated from any rent in 1906 it was perhaps not something that their conveyancer placed too much emphasis on at the time. Your own conveyancer, especially if they have local knowledge, maybe better placed to explain this though.