Technical oversight - were we in the wrong?

marksalderson

Hi All,

My Girlfriend and I could really use some help with a dispute with a company who shall remain anon. I'd like to hear some outside opinions as obviously we're too emotionally involved in the situation to be unbiased. I'll try to remain as brief as possible:

A few months ago we obtained a quote to have a new front door fitted in to our planned extension (the front door being supplied and fitted by a separate company to our builders). During the quote process we used the online door design tool that the company provides on its website, in which you can specify the door type, frame type, door and frame colour. Then ultimately specify the length and width of the aperture that the door will fit in.

We accepted the quote and they sent through the documents for us to sign, along with a copy of the technical drawings of the door cills to ensure we're happy with the measurements. The quote specified that an 85mm stub cill was included, this we hadn't specified so not knowing about doors assumed that this is the one which matched our chosen door/frame and recommended by the company. I used the technical drawing, located the 85mm cill measurements out of the three cills present on the drawings and of course had no issue with the measurements I saw so I signed.

Fast forward a few months to fitting day. The fitters turned up and almost immediately they questioned why we'd gone with an 85mm cill as it will result in the frame almost being flush with the external brick work. They even remarked that the evening before at the yard he thought it was an unusual choice. I wasn't too bothered about it so just said it was fine, I didn't mind it would sit flush. 30 minutes later they still hadn't started work yet and another 15 minutes after that they wanted to speak with us.

The fitter was concerned that the 85mm cill would result in the door and frame not sitting over the cavity wall closures, which may result in condensation creeping around the frame and in to the house. They had been asked by the office to get us to sign to say that we was happy with that and would take liability. Of course we weren't and phoned the office.

When we spoke with the office, they said we'd specified the 85mm cill and signed the quote and even seen the technical drawings for the different cills, therefore it's our fault that the mistake was made. I argued that we didn't specify the cill, it was just included on the quote along with numerous other technical details which, being consumers we aren't placed to know that using an 85mm cill would result in the frame not sealing over the cavity wall closure and could lead to condensation. While the technical drawings did show cross sectional measurements of the cills, it didn't indicate where these should sit in a door aperture and Installations Manager did admit that the drawings do not show much information.

During our conversation, they mentioned that the cills are 'pennies' (its an expensive door, so relatively speaking I can see what they'd mean) and will offer a new one for free and in the meantime would draw us up another quote to cover the fitting cost. I again argued that this wasn't fair as we weren't able to make an informed choice over the cill, as we didn't spec it. They have made it clear we should have checked the technical drawings with our builders - which we think isnt fair as it had nothing to do with them, and if we had been just replacing an old door we wouldn't have had builders to consult.

To cut a long story short, they have stuck to their original offer of a free cill (pennies) and a reduced fitting cost of £420+VAT (the original fitting cost was £537+VAT) but I still feel hard done by as I don't feel this is a fair mistake. If this was mistakes within the measurements that I'd hold my hands up and get my wallet out. But its hard to swallow having to pay so much for something that really I would only know if I were a professional tradesman.

Had the online design tool allowed us to specify which cill to use, the question over which cill was right may have been asked and we could have made an informed choice. Is this a case of buyer beware? Or should the company have done more to ensure that we were made aware of the technicalities of the door cills prior to us signing the quote? Annoyingly the fitting cost is a fixed day rate, of which we only had them onsite for two hours maximum!

What do you guys think? They have us over a barrel as you have to pay all upfront - so we have already paid one day of fitting, but the door is still sitting in our hallway.

hollydays

What do the Websites terms and conditions say about checking of the technical plans?
I'm finding this confusing that you appear to be the first person to have had this problem.
What you seem to be saying doesn't seem to make sense.
Are you sure there was no other reference anywhere to other options for the cills?

marksalderson

The cill size is referenced in the quote we signed, however the point at which you enter the details on the site to ask for a quote, you're not asked to select a size of cill. This was entered automatically for us based on our other measurements.

Following this, we were supplied with a techincal drawing showing three different cill sizes and was asked to confirm that we were happy with the 85mm selected. We said yes, as knew this was the size they advised based on our measurements and we had checked that the depth of the gap for the door was at least 85mm. At no point were we advised to check that the cill covered the cavity wall closures, and we weren't aware of this (not being builders).

From their website and their T&Cs we have found:


Small print on quotation we signed:
You have received sufficient technical information, drawings and images of the product to place an order and understand that drawings on the quote are only a guide
If the fitting team arrives on site and are not able to complete the job the full fitting cost will apply.


T&Cs from website:
The Customer is wholly responsible for checking all particulars on the approval quotation and advising The Company immediately should there be any discrepancies. The Company will manufacture the products to the approved specification irrespective of any prior written or verbal communication. The Customer will inform The Company in writing if they require their order to be chain of custody (FSC).
The Company shall carry out its work on a continuous basis during normal working hours and The Company’s price is fixed accordingly The Company shall only install the goods into fully prepared openings that have the correct tolerances allowed and solid structural sides all round to enable a level, firm and secure fixing of the goods; these include steel, solid brick, concrete and structural timer beams or lintels. If The Company cannot install the goods due to incorrect opening sizes, no tolerances allowed, openings not being of a structural sound quality to enable level, firm and secure fixing, disruption by other trades or obstruction e.g. scaffold being directly outside or inside the opening aperture, 100% of the quoted fitting cost will be charged.
Confirmed orders are based on the plans and specifications supplied by The Customer. The Customer shall check the specification and quantities quoted and shall be deemed to have accepted the specification and quantity specified when placing the order. The Company will not accept responsibility for incorrect specification and quantity supplied by The Customer.


Statement on email:
We aim to furnish you with as much relevant technical information as possible in a simple and sensible way to enable you to understand each products benefits. We will always recommend the specification that best fits your project.

hollydays

There is a reference to arbitration on their website. Depending what others say here , you could consider that?

hollydays

Their website also says their telephone staff can offer advice on the best type of cill, but this isn't near or with the door design tool.

halibut2209

"We will always recommend the specification that best fits your project."

If they didn't, then you have a case

marksalderson

Thanks for your input guys. I fear that we could pursue it further, go to arbitration, small claims court etc but ultimately we'll still end up with a lump of aluminum sitting in our hall way waiting to be installed.

Very reluctantly we may just have to pay the money and learn from the situation!

hollydays

Marksalderson wrote: »

Thanks for your input guys. I fear that we could pursue it further, go to arbitration, small claims court etc but ultimately we'll still end up with a lump of aluminum sitting in our hall way waiting to be installed.

Very reluctantly we may just have to pay the money and learn from the situation!

Strange response..

wealdroam

Marksalderson wrote: »

Thanks for your input guys. I fear that we could pursue it further, go to arbitration, small claims court etc but ultimately we'll still end up with a lump of aluminum sitting in our hall way waiting to be installed.

Very reluctantly we may just have to pay the money and learn from the situation!

Marksalderson, remind us again why you posted on this forum?

deanos

To cut a long story short, they have stuck to their original offer of a free cill (pennies) and a reduced fitting cost of £420+VAT (the original fitting cost was £537+VAT) but I still feel hard done by as I don't feel this is a fair mistak

so they have swapped the cill for free and given you a discount ? what more did you want ?

or are they asking for another fitting fee ?

frugal_mike

deanos wrote: »

so they have swapped the cill for free

and given you a discount ? what more did you want ?

or are they asking for another fitting fee ?

I get the impression they are charging full price for the fitting they couldn't do because the cill was incorrect. The discount is for a second attempt at fitting.