Break even

zeupater

Cardew wrote: »

... solar doesn't generate at night, so will not reduce the need for other generating capacity to meet maximum load on the grid - which is on a winter's evening.

Hi

Agreed in principle to a point, but with a number of reservations. It's pretty obvious that many/most with solar pv have made a number of changes to the daily routine in order to shift demand to fit generation in some way or other ... for example, we contributed a little today by baking some potatoes well before they were needed, thus shifting demand away from the evening peak, even in Winter - okay, it's just one household, but likely one amongst many making similar adjustments, as part of a group now making-up over 2% of UK households. Not everyone will make a difference every day, but as the technology makes a greater penetration into the market the cumulative effect would likely be noticeable ....

However, somewhere down the road, there's the promise of storage ... like most others, the majority of our electricity consumption is from baseline and relatively low power draw, there are high power appliances but these use comparatively little energy, so ~3kWh of cost justifiable overnight storage would rank pretty high on our shopping list .... the issue here is that such systems wouldn't cope with high power appliances without being seriously oversized, but that's where grid-scale storage comes in ....

HTH
Z

Cardew

tunnel wrote: »

How is that relevant to the question asked, MFW_ASAP never asked if solar worked at night nor did they ask how their electric would be generated during the night, is it so hard to stick to the question asked without going off on a tangent.

You have got a little mixed up and appear to have missed MFW_ASAP's second post.

This was his second post:

MFW_ASAP Thanks for the responses. Does that not seems to be odd for the country to be investing in solar when it will always cost more than other energy sources? Or am I missing something?

That brought a response from The Green Hornet and then zeupater.

You have quoted my reply to zeupater's post which wasn't a reply to MFW_ASAP.

Do please read the thread first - it helps!

Cardew

Martyn1981 wrote: »

On top of all this PV is the most popular renewable as shown in all of the DECC surveys. The results have been 4 to 6% of people oppose solar, 80 to 85% support it.


Mart.

I really find it amusing that in a supposed adult discussion - you trot out that 'fact' time and again.

Naturally the public are given a full appreciation of the costs and disadvantages of solar PV before being asked that question.

ed110220

MFW_ASAP wrote: »

Thanks for the responses. Does that not seems to be odd for the country to be investing in solar when it will always cost more than other energy sources? Or am I missing something?

I think what you've missed is the dramatic and ongoing fall in the cost of solar PV and the simultaneous boom in its deployment worldwide, led by China at the moment...

The Solar Trade Association believes that it will be cheaper than gas generation in the UK by 2018, while the DECC predicts five years later. http://www.solarpowerportal.co.uk/news/uk_solar_to_be_cheaper_than_gas_by_2018_6754

Ed

Cardew

ed110220 wrote: »

I think what you've missed is the dramatic and ongoing fall in the cost of solar PV and the simultaneous boom in its deployment worldwide, led by China at the moment...

The Solar Trade Association believes that it will be cheaper than gas generation in the UK by 2018, while the DECC predicts five years later. http://www.solarpowerportal.co.uk/news/uk_solar_to_be_cheaper_than_gas_by_2018_6754

Ed

Oh dear it states 'large scale solar'.

We have been told repeatedly on this forum that sub 4kWp systems on the roof of private houses is cheaper - look up earlier posts for the reasons why solar farms are too expensive etc etc.;)

The_Green_Hornet

Cardew wrote: »

Not quite:

It is a target - not that we are 'legally bound'. No other country is serious about achieving the target either.


In any case how does that mandate the use of solar PV to 'aim toward;)' that target. The reason PV is popular on this board, and defended so resolutely and at times illogically, is simply because the FIT makes it lucrative.

On a wider issue if Britain achieved zero carbon emissions - no cars/power/heating/manufacturing etc - the increase in emissions from China and India would wipe out Britain's saving in months.

I think it would be fair to say that if there wasn't a UK Climate Change Act there wouldn't be a government incentive to push renewables and then they wouldn't have introduced a FIT scheme to subsidise solar PV, wind turbines etc. in the first place.

Whether you like it or not the state subsidises and taxes all sorts of things in an attempt to change the behaviour of its citizens. Renewable FITs is just one of them but it does seem to get some posters irrationally over excited for some strange reason.

ed110220

Cardew wrote: »

Oh dear it states 'large scale solar'.

We have been told repeatedly on this forum that sub 4kWp systems on the roof of private houses is cheaper - look up earlier posts for the reasons why solar farms are too expensive etc etc.;)

Seems fair to compare large scale solar with other large scale electricity generation.

Or perhaps we should compare it with a domestic 4 kW coal fired plant, or my favourite the airing cupboard nuclear reactor. I think your agitation against domestic solar is well known enough not to need smuggling into every discussion

Martyn1981

Cardew wrote: »

Oh dear it states 'large scale solar'.

We have been told repeatedly on this forum that sub 4kWp systems on the roof of private houses is cheaper - look up earlier posts for the reasons why solar farms are too expensive etc etc.;)

Oh dear, yet another made up Cardew fact!

I'm more than happy to repeat my explanations how the higher value of demand side PV (Import & Export) makes it more economically viable than supply side PV. But since you've never ..... ever .... challenged my statements and figures, only ever pretended that I said domestic was cheaper or more efficient, I doubt there is much point in continuing to try to educate you. Is there?

Perhaps the simplist way of resolving this little nonsense routine you have is to ask you to proove me wrong. So .... can you present an economic argument including;

1. capital expenditure (Capex) which for supply side will add on planning, legal and grid connection costs. And operating expenditure (Opex) which for supply side will add on land, security and insurance costs,

2. income streams, grid supply for supply side, grid supply (export) + import savings for demand side,

that proves me wrong?

If not, then what's your point/problem?

Mart.

MFW_ASAP

ed110220 wrote: »

I think what you've missed is the dramatic and ongoing fall in the cost of solar PV and the simultaneous boom in its deployment worldwide, led by China at the moment...

The Solar Trade Association believes that it will be cheaper than gas generation in the UK by 2018, while the DECC predicts five years later. http://www.solarpowerportal.co.uk/news/uk_solar_to_be_cheaper_than_gas_by_2018_6754

Ed

That's good to know. I was looking at going down the DIY route and fit some panels to an outbuilding, but it's a bit off-putting if the investment never pays back. I'll monitor PV prices and see how it goes. Thanks.

Fruit_and_Nut_Case

MFW_ASAP wrote: »

That's good to know. I was looking at going down the DIY route and fit some panels to an outbuilding, but it's a bit off-putting if the investment never pays back. I'll monitor PV prices and see how it goes. Thanks.

Worth mentioning that DIY installations would be subject to the full 20% VAT on materials. "Professional" installations have a reduced 5% rate, giving them another advantage.