We’d like to remind Forumites to please avoid political debate on the Forum.
This is to keep it a safe and useful space for MoneySaving discussions. Threads that are – or become – political in nature may be removed in line with the Forum’s rules. Thank you for your understanding.
📨 Have you signed up to the Forum's new Email Digest yet? Get a selection of trending threads sent straight to your inbox daily, weekly or monthly!
Difficult question regarding funeral debt.
GlynD
Posts: 10,883 Forumite
Hi folks. I'm here acting on behalf of someone quite close to me who has a problem as follows:
She lives in Wales. Several months ago her father died in Northern Ireland. He didn't live with any family member but was cared for by an ex-wife of another family member who was also named as executor of his will.
The girl disagreed with the way the funeral was organised and where it departed from. As next of kin she felt she should have been consulted. The undertaker refused to take her instructions however so her father was buried in accordance with his carer's instructions.
She went to a reading of the will to discover that her father had left all his earthly possessions to this carer and her son and named her as executor of the will. The young lady requested certain things from her father's estate as mementoes including photographs of her grandmother and some regimental insignia. She wasn't permitted to have any of these.
Several months ago the young lady's brother received an invitation to attend a meeting to discuss a "payment plan" for the funeral. In the circumstances he felt, as neither he nor his sister (who was NOK) were allowed any input into the funeral or the will, he would decline the offer and allow the executor of the will to pay the full cost.
Today the young lady who is NOK received an invoice from the undertaker for £2000.
I have outlined this as dispassionately as possible and wish to concentrate on the facts if possible because there is much bad blood between all parties and the circumstances of the man's death and funeral have exacerbated matters. The young lady and her brother had been effectively denied seeing their father before he died and prevented from involving themselves in his funeral.
As NOK does the young lady have any liability?
As things stand I believe she doesn't as she issued no instructions to the undertaker, therefore no contract exists between them for service and payment. We are all unsure why the undertaker would choose to send an invoice in these circumstances unless he has either been misinformed or chosen to try and embarrass her into paying something.
My advice to her was to hold fire whilst I checked my opinion here but that it was my considered view that the invoice should be returned to the undertaker with a polite letter declining payment in the absence of any contract, as well as naming the executor of the will and suggesting he seek payment there?
I'd be very interested in any comments or advice please.
She lives in Wales. Several months ago her father died in Northern Ireland. He didn't live with any family member but was cared for by an ex-wife of another family member who was also named as executor of his will.
The girl disagreed with the way the funeral was organised and where it departed from. As next of kin she felt she should have been consulted. The undertaker refused to take her instructions however so her father was buried in accordance with his carer's instructions.
She went to a reading of the will to discover that her father had left all his earthly possessions to this carer and her son and named her as executor of the will. The young lady requested certain things from her father's estate as mementoes including photographs of her grandmother and some regimental insignia. She wasn't permitted to have any of these.
Several months ago the young lady's brother received an invitation to attend a meeting to discuss a "payment plan" for the funeral. In the circumstances he felt, as neither he nor his sister (who was NOK) were allowed any input into the funeral or the will, he would decline the offer and allow the executor of the will to pay the full cost.
Today the young lady who is NOK received an invoice from the undertaker for £2000.
I have outlined this as dispassionately as possible and wish to concentrate on the facts if possible because there is much bad blood between all parties and the circumstances of the man's death and funeral have exacerbated matters. The young lady and her brother had been effectively denied seeing their father before he died and prevented from involving themselves in his funeral.
As NOK does the young lady have any liability?
As things stand I believe she doesn't as she issued no instructions to the undertaker, therefore no contract exists between them for service and payment. We are all unsure why the undertaker would choose to send an invoice in these circumstances unless he has either been misinformed or chosen to try and embarrass her into paying something.
My advice to her was to hold fire whilst I checked my opinion here but that it was my considered view that the invoice should be returned to the undertaker with a polite letter declining payment in the absence of any contract, as well as naming the executor of the will and suggesting he seek payment there?
I'd be very interested in any comments or advice please.
0
Comments
-
Hi folks. I'm here acting on behalf of someone quite close to me who has a problem as follows:
She lives in Wales. Several months ago her father died in Northern Ireland. He didn't live with any family member but was cared for by an ex-wife of another family member who was also named as executor of his will.
The girl disagreed with the way the funeral was organised and where it departed from. As next of kin she felt she should have been consulted. The undertaker refused to take her instructions however so her father was buried in accordance with his carer's instructions.
She went to a reading of the will to discover that her father had left all his earthly possessions to this carer and her son and named her as executor of the will. The young lady requested certain things from her father's estate as mementoes including photographs of her grandmother and some regimental insignia. She wasn't permitted to have any of these.
Several months ago the young lady's brother received an invitation to attend a meeting to discuss a "payment plan" for the funeral. In the circumstances he felt, as neither he nor his sister (who was NOK) were allowed any input into the funeral or the will, he would decline the offer and allow the executor of the will to pay the full cost.
Today the young lady who is NOK received an invoice from the undertaker for £2000.
I have outlined this as dispassionately as possible and wish to concentrate on the facts if possible because there is much bad blood between all parties and the circumstances of the man's death and funeral have exacerbated matters. The young lady and her brother had been effectively denied seeing their father before he died and prevented from involving themselves in his funeral.
As NOK does the young lady have any liability?
As things stand I believe she doesn't as she issued no instructions to the undertaker, therefore no contract exists between them for service and payment. We are all unsure why the undertaker would choose to send an invoice in these circumstances unless he has either been misinformed or chosen to try and embarrass her into paying something.
My advice to her was to hold fire whilst I checked my opinion here but that it was my considered view that the invoice should be returned to the undertaker with a polite letter declining payment in the absence of any contract, as well as naming the executor of the will and suggesting he seek payment there?
I'd be very interested in any comments or advice please.
My understanding is that as executor of the will then they had a right to arrange the funeral.
As regards taking other family's wishes into consideration then, of course, it would be pleasant and considerate to do so but as executor they do have the right to make the decisions. Ditto with the personal possessions. Unless they were explicitly mentioned in the will as being given to beneficiaries then the executor has authority over all the assets as laid out in the will.
However, since it was the executor who arranged the funeral then they should be invoiced for it. Send it back to the funeral director with an accompanying letter saying so.0 -
The person who arranges the funeral and signs the paperwork pays for the funeral.
The cost of the funeral is the first call on any money left by the deceased.
As long as she didn't sign a contract with the funeral directors, she should send the bill back to them and tell them to get payment from the executor.0 -
As Mojisola says it is the person who signed the contract who is liable for the bill.
When I organised Nans funeral the undertaker mentioned several times that if I signed then I was liable for the full amount should the insurance not cover it (we was uncertain of value of insurance at this point but knew there was just enough in the bank to cover the funeral being a priority debt of the estate)
At the time I felt he told me way too many times that by signing I was liable. But looking back he wanted me to be certain even in my grief I understood what signing meant.
So if the carer/executor signed the she is the one liable.
And if she has spent her inheritance then she still needs to cough up, as funeral is priority debt to the estate and I believe although I may be wrong should always be paid before other debts (although maybe over paid benefits take top priority)0 -
pmlindyloo wrote: »My understanding is that as executor of the will then they had a right to arrange the funeral.
As regards taking other family's wishes into consideration then, of course, it would be pleasant and considerate to do so but as executor they do have the right to make the decisions. Ditto with the personal possessions. Unless they were explicitly mentioned in the will as being given to beneficiaries then the executor has authority over all the assets as laid out in the will.
However, since it was the executor who arranged the funeral then they should be invoiced for it. Send it back to the funeral director with an accompanying letter saying so.The person who arranges the funeral and signs the paperwork pays for the funeral.
The cost of the funeral is the first call on any money left by the deceased.
As long as she didn't sign a contract with the funeral directors, she should send the bill back to them and tell them to get payment from the executor.
Thank you both. This is exactly what I thought. The only thing I wasn't sure of was if anything had to be signed when instructing an undertaker. It's been 14 years since I organised a funeral.0 -
Thank you both. This is exactly what I thought. The only thing I wasn't sure of was if anything had to be signed when instructing an undertaker. It's been 14 years since I organised a funeral.
Unfortunately I have just arranged (Sept) my wonderful Step-mum's funeral. I had to sign forms that basically stated that the bill would be paid. I am the executor of the estate but was asked if (as probate hadn't been arranged yet) I was able to settle the amount from the estate or if the invoice had to be presented to her bank.0 -
Even if nothing was signed, your friend is not the executor of the estate and did not make any arrangments with the undertaker, so a letter simply referring them back to the executor would in any event be the appropriate response.All posts are my personal opinion, not formal advice Always get proper, professional advice (particularly about anything legal!)0
-
Even if nothing was signed, your friend is not the executor of the estate and did not make any arrangments with the undertaker, so a letter simply referring them back to the executor would in any event be the appropriate response.
That was my assumption based on the law of contract. Thanks for confirming it.0 -
I believe although I may be wrong should always be paid before other debts (although maybe over paid benefits take top priority)
Benefits, council, pensions and HMRC are all regular unsecured creditors.
Funerals come top except for debts secured against assets up to the value of the asset(anything still owed joins the unsecured).0 -
It sounds like the undertaker is trying it on. The NOK has no legal meaning nor responsibility. She should politely but firmly refer them to the executor or the person who ordered the funeral.Hi folks. I'm here acting on behalf of someone quite close to me who has a problem as follows:
She lives in Wales. Several months ago her father died in Northern Ireland. He didn't live with any family member but was cared for by an ex-wife of another family member who was also named as executor of his will.
The girl disagreed with the way the funeral was organised and where it departed from. As next of kin she felt she should have been consulted. The undertaker refused to take her instructions however so her father was buried in accordance with his carer's instructions.
She went to a reading of the will to discover that her father had left all his earthly possessions to this carer and her son and named her as executor of the will. The young lady requested certain things from her father's estate as mementoes including photographs of her grandmother and some regimental insignia. She wasn't permitted to have any of these.
Several months ago the young lady's brother received an invitation to attend a meeting to discuss a "payment plan" for the funeral. In the circumstances he felt, as neither he nor his sister (who was NOK) were allowed any input into the funeral or the will, he would decline the offer and allow the executor of the will to pay the full cost.
Today the young lady who is NOK received an invoice from the undertaker for £2000.
I have outlined this as dispassionately as possible and wish to concentrate on the facts if possible because there is much bad blood between all parties and the circumstances of the man's death and funeral have exacerbated matters. The young lady and her brother had been effectively denied seeing their father before he died and prevented from involving themselves in his funeral.
As NOK does the young lady have any liability?
As things stand I believe she doesn't as she issued no instructions to the undertaker, therefore no contract exists between them for service and payment. We are all unsure why the undertaker would choose to send an invoice in these circumstances unless he has either been misinformed or chosen to try and embarrass her into paying something.
My advice to her was to hold fire whilst I checked my opinion here but that it was my considered view that the invoice should be returned to the undertaker with a polite letter declining payment in the absence of any contract, as well as naming the executor of the will and suggesting he seek payment there?
I'd be very interested in any comments or advice please.0 -
getmore4less wrote: »Benefits, council, pensions and HMRC are all regular unsecured creditors.
Funerals come top except for debts secured against assets up to the value of the asset(anything still owed joins the unsecured).
I wasn't sure where overpaid benefits came in the grand scheme of debts.
I knew the funeral bill was a priority debt.0
This discussion has been closed.
Confirm your email address to Create Threads and Reply
Categories
- All Categories
- 352.8K Banking & Borrowing
- 253.8K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
- 454.6K Spending & Discounts
- 245.9K Work, Benefits & Business
- 601.9K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
- 177.7K Life & Family
- 259.8K Travel & Transport
- 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
- 16K Discuss & Feedback
- 37.7K Read-Only Boards