Employer docking pay?

getmore4less

The only issue would be if you were on NMW, a 15min deduction would take you below NMW.

An employer can have any payment system they like as long as you get more than NMW for the time worked.

The employment act does cover deductions.

So the key will be(as said above) is this a change to the pay structure OR a deduction

jc808

wouldnt leaving early be classed as misconduct?

getmore4less

jc808 wrote: »

wouldnt leaving early be classed as misconduct?

They have established the penalty for that misconduct is docking pay.

jc808

getmore4less wrote: »

They have established the penalty for that misconduct is docking pay.

have they?

is the clocking out system used as a type of flexi-time?

or to dock payments?

be aware if they were doing it as flexi time and they stopped - your clocking out early would be evidence of misconduct

Undervalued

There are a few points being missed here.......

Under some circumstances if an employee leaves early (and being pedantic, breaches their contract) the employer's loss could actually be far greater than just the employee's salary. Taken to extreme, suppose it lost the firm a major contract? The employer could take disciplinary action and ultimately dismiss perfectly fairly (in law). Compared with this the loss of between 1 and 14 mins pay is a far lesser sanction.

Secondly, it is quite common is many business situations to have a minimum period of account. Often this is a tenth of an hour (6 mins) but why not 15? Providing this is what was agreed then as far as I know it is perfectly enforceable.

Thirdly, it is perfectly possible for contracts to include a penalty clause. Properly drafted and freely entered into these can be lawful.

getmore4less

Undervalued wrote: »

There are a few points being missed here.......

Under some circumstances if an employee leaves early (and being pedantic, breaches their contract) the employer's loss could actually be far greater than just the employee's salary. Taken to extreme, suppose it lost the firm a major contract? The employer could take disciplinary action and ultimately dismiss perfectly fairly (in law). Compared with this the loss of between 1 and 14 mins pay is a far lesser sanction.

highly unlikely this situation would occur if it did(loss of contract) the current pre estimate of loss is not proportional and could stop a claim for more if this was the basis for loss of contract.

Secondly, it is quite common is many business situations to have a minimum period of account. Often this is a tenth of an hour (6 mins) but why not 15? Providing this is what was agreed then as far as I know it is perfectly enforceable.

back to is this a penalty or the pay a significant difference,

Thirdly, it is perfectly possible for contracts to include a penalty clause. Properly drafted and freely entered into these can be lawful.

A penalty clause in employment that included deduction of wages would have to be written and signed if not statutory deduction, one of the few areas that requires a signed change to an employment contract.

pugger

Thanks for all the replies, some good reading here. I will check over the contract in depth but this is something that has never come up or been mentioned in my previous 10 years, only since Mitie came in. All our contract/terms/conditions/etc have a definite 12 months protection.

My reference to contract law is that as far as I'm aware they must calculate a genuine pre estimate of loss, anything more than genuine loss constitutes a penalty which nobody without authority is permitted to administer.

Errata

What does your union have to say about it?

pugger

I suspect they aren't aware, this came as a threat from a bullying supervisor. To be honest our union seem pretty useless with anything. It could be hot air, I want to make sure I know the law before I bring it up though.

getmore4less

pugger wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies, some good reading here. I will check over the contract in depth but this is something that has never come up or been mentioned in my previous 10 years, only since Mitie came in. All our contract/terms/conditions/etc have a definite 12 months protection.

My reference to contract law is that as far as I'm aware they must calculate a genuine pre estimate of loss, anything more than genuine loss constitutes a penalty which nobody without authority is permitted to administer.

Not sure an employment contracts can even include breach penalties on that basis.

Deductions for during employment losses(like shortages or breakages) are covered by the employment act and even then there are limitations if the losses.


Are you paid hourly or on a salary.
Have your old overtime and enhanced rates carried over.
If your payment terms were protected then an illegal deduction may be the way to go.

The standard retaliation is no free overtime finish on time every time.

and NEVER clock out early

What terms have been protected? for example have the contractual disciplinary and grievance policies have carried over.

If you really believe the terms of the contract for services which they have taken over breach your terms you should go back to the UNION AND those that outsourced and specified the protection of your terms as that is the contract that is being broken.

Decided to check and I see Mitie are massive in hospital services contracts chances are the trust will not care and wipe their hand that the terms of the TUPE are broken, the union will not want to know will be my guess.