Landlord will not surrender tenancy

stressedtenant

Hi,

We have ended in a rather messy situation which I could really do with some advice on.

We have a 6 month short-hold tenancy agreement (no break clause)

3 months into tenancy we decided that we wanted to move out.
We discussed it with our agent, who said we needed to give 1 month notice in writing. We then in agreement with agent advertised the flat, showed prospective tenants flat and then forwarded our agents details onto one prospective tenant who wanted to rent the flat. This tenant met with agent and was told us he could move in when we were due to move out.

As this prospective tenant had met with the agent I had assumed everything was fine with us moving out. But it was not.

We pay our rent on the 13th of the month and were due to move out on 23rd Sept, we had given one months notice but then received an email from landlord not agent saying he was taking us to court if we did not pay 2 weeks rent up until the 13th an additional £360. We immediately did as advised by our agent who said upon payment we could move forward with our surrender of the rental agreement. I tried to explain we hadn't paid as we thought someone was moving in.

In the meantime we have moved out and started another tenancy.

The agent is a man in England who works on behalf of a landlord who lives in ireland with 16 properties in this housing complex.

We then met with the agent after paying the additional £360 to discuss surrender, he said he would discuss it with landlord. Now we have received an email from landlord saying he wants 6 weeks rent in order for us to surrender so that is £950. However we are now renting another property and there is no way we can pay this - so I assume we will be going to court.

The property is very rentable in city centre manchester and get rented very quickly, it was within a day that we found a prospective tenant. So to ask for 6 weeks rent from us seems rather harsh. Although I understand the landlord is within his rights. Apparently he works in a big company and has a in-house legal team and sues people on a regular basis according to the agent.

I have also told the agent and landlord that they have not put our £650 deposit in a deposit scheme which they dismissed and seemed to infuriate them further.

In addition we paid £150 fee at the start of our tenancy but this does not feature on tenancy agreement.

The whole thing is a mess, and we have never been court before and is very worrying. We just don't have £950, I am currently out of work although my partner is working, we are also paying rent and bills on another property.

Whilst I ultimately think this is our fault as we should have not begun a new tenancy without clarity. I can't help but think the landlord is being harsh and there does not appear to be clear communication between agent/landlord and us.

What does everyone this pay £950 + council tax and bills and be done with it. Or go to court? However Court will see we do not have the money even in our savings so not sure if we will have to pay it in instalments and whether we will have a CCJ against our names.

Thanks

princeofpounds

Hi, no time to type proper reply but don't worry too much. Given what you have said about the deposit it is unlikely to get to court and if it does you will be awarded more than you are being asked for.

Doubtless some people will have more time and give you more details.

tumbledowngirl

For starters, if your 'LL didn't protect your deposit and issue the prescribed information within the time limits at the start of the tenancy, I believe you could sue him for 3x the deposit amount.
He sounds like a bully, frankly. Did you ever get anything in writing, regarding him agreeing to surrender the tenancy - when the agent said it was ok initially?
I'm no expert but it sounds like your 'LL and agent have a nice little thing going on, whereby the agent says one thing, makes you think it's all sorted and then the LL tries to assert what he wants you to think is his right and screws money out of you.
I don't believe LLs are able to claim rent from 2 sources either - so if he has replacement tenants paying rent, he can't claim rent from you for the same period.

As I said, I'm not an expert so I'm happy to be corrected.

stressedtenant

tumbledowngirl wrote: »

For starters, if your 'LL didn't protect your deposit and issue the prescribed information within the time limits at the start of the tenancy, I believe you could sue him for 3x the deposit amount.
He sounds like a bully, frankly. Did you ever get anything in writing, regarding him agreeing to surrender the tenancy - when the agent said it was ok initially?
I'm no expert but it sounds like your 'LL and agent have a nice little thing going on, whereby the agent says one thing, makes you think it's all sorted and then the LL tries to assert what he wants you to think is his right and screws money out of you.
I don't believe LLs are able to claim rent from 2 sources either - so if he has replacement tenants paying rent, he can't claim rent from you for the same period.

As I said, I'm not an expert so I'm happy to be corrected.

Thanks for this reassurance - going to go to CAB tomorrow too to see what they say. The prospective tenant that met with the agent hasn't moved in - so I fear they will keep it empty on purpose to make a point for 6 weeks to get the rent from us. Even though they could let it very easily.

Yes, the agent/landlord relationship is very confusing and annoying. And all our emails from the landlord begin with 'without prejudice'.

G_M

1) I'm guessing from your post that at no point have you provided, or received, anything IN WRITINGregardig the Early Surrender of the tenancy.....

Why or why do people have these important 'conversations' and not follow up to confirm formally!!!

Unless/until a formal agreement is made, a tenant is open to changes of mind by agent/LL as to what date the tenancy can end, what rent will be due, what other costs might be charged, and it is then down to "he said xxx" "no I said YYYYY" etc

2) on the plus side, you can sue the landlord (and jointly sue the agent) for 3 times the deposit since it was not registered. In many cases, the threat of this is enough to make a sensible LL compromise (ie on the Early Surrender date etc) but if he sues for extra rent, you counter-sue for the penalty.

princeofpounds

OK, back.

Please answer the following:

- Do you have ANY evidence of what has been agreed?

- Have you checked with all the deposit schemes that the deposit has not been registered?

- Do you have any evidence that the property was let to other tenants shortly after you vacated?

- Have you received your deposit back?

As pointed out, if the deposit was not properly protected then you can sue the landlord for the return of the deposit and 1-3x the deposit amount as a penalty.

The extra two weeks' money that was demanded to make up to a complete month is probably due actually. Rental payments are not divisible, so if you leave one day into a rental period you owe the entire month. It sounds stupid, but the reason is to avoid legal disputes about how many days/hours/minutes/seconds of refund you get.

Many LLs waive this as reasonable human beings or through ignorance, and if you hadn't paid it you may have been able to avoid it with the threat of suing for non-protection, but now it's paid you will not be able to recover it.

You talk about the 13th being the date you pay your rent; that is technically irrelevant, it is the date of the rental periods that matter (i.e. what day did the tenancy actually START?). But that's probably not a detail which matters.

The extra 6 weeks is not due. The LL can ask for arrangements like this to agree surrender, but only in advance, not after the fact. If the communication from the landlord makes it clear that the demand is coming after an agreement with the agent and after departing then that is also a form of evidence that he is trying to change a pre-existing deal.

Anything the agent agreed with you is binding on the LL (indeed legally it is as if the LL themselves said it), the difficulty of course is evidencing it.

So, what you are likely to have to do is write a very brief, simple, non-emotional letter in reply making something like the following points:

- your agent agreed surrender on your behalf.
- the terms agreed were x
- the surrender of the tenancy was completed as you vacated the property and the agent took possession on date y
- you paid up in full until the end of the rental period.
- the demand for extra money was not part of the agreement, was after the fact, and will not be paid
- you note that the deposit was not protected. you reserve the right to address that matter if required.

The point is *not* to argue with the LL - he knows the real position. It is simply to establish the facts as you see them and make it clear you have the bones of an argument in court.

You will probably find (although no-one can guarantee it) that will be the last you hear on the matter. Ultimately unless court documents drop through your letterbox then it's all just hot air.

stressedtenant

Thanks PrinceofPounds - I have replied to your questions below

princeofpounds wrote: »

OK, back.

Please answer the following:

- Do you have ANY evidence of what has been agreed?

No, (I know this is terrible)

- Have you checked with all the deposit schemes that the deposit has not been registered?

Yes, checked them all and saw agent on Sunday who said they don't use them.

- Do you have any evidence that the property was let to other tenants shortly after you vacated?
No the property has not been let - we still have the keys. Our rent is paid up until the 13th of October. Therefore the landlord has not accepted the surrender despite our understanding that they had done. The agent told us he was happy for us to advertise the flat on gumtree. Which we did and he met with a tenant who was interested in the flat. When we met agent on Sunday he said he didn't find tenant acceptable however did not let us know this otherwise we would have readvertised it. The flat is in the centre of manchester so very easy to let.

- Have you received your deposit back?
No not yet.

As pointed out, if the deposit was not properly protected then you can sue the landlord for the return of the deposit and 1-3x the deposit amount as a penalty.

The extra two weeks' money that was demanded to make up to a complete month is probably due actually. Rental payments are not divisible, so if you leave one day into a rental period you owe the entire month. It sounds stupid, but the reason is to avoid legal disputes about how many days/hours/minutes/seconds of refund you get.

Many LLs waive this as reasonable human beings or through ignorance, and if you hadn't paid it you may have been able to avoid it with the threat of suing for non-protection, but now it's paid you will not be able to recover it.

You talk about the 13th being the date you pay your rent; that is technically irrelevant, it is the date of the rental periods that matter (i.e. what day did the tenancy actually START?). But that's probably not a detail which matters.
The 13th is the date we moved in as well as rent date.

The extra 6 weeks is not due. The LL can ask for arrangements like this to agree surrender, but only in advance, not after the fact. If the communication from the landlord makes it clear that the demand is coming after an agreement with the agent and after departing then that is also a form of evidence that he is trying to change a pre-existing deal.

Anything the agent agreed with you is binding on the LL (indeed legally it is as if the LL themselves said it), the difficulty of course is evidencing it.
True there is no evidence. He is saying if we pay 6 weeks rent (£950) then he will surrender immediately this is written to us without prejudice. This does free him up to probably let the flat anyway. I guess it wouldn't count as two rents as the £950 as we are paying this is to get out of the contract. We have paid our rent up to the 13th October and I really think the agent could find someone to move in by then if not a week after, we are happy to pay rent up until they do, another week but 6 weeks seems like too much. I know we are in the landlords hands. We have never had any issues such as these, never been in court or had any ccJs. The fact that I mentioned the deposit not being in the scheme apparently infuriated the landlord and he's become very unwavering since.

So, what you are likely to have to do is write a very brief, simple, non-emotional letter in reply making something like the following points:

- your agent agreed surrender on your behalf.
- the terms agreed were x
- the surrender of the tenancy was completed as you vacated the property and the agent took possession on date y
- you paid up in full until the end of the rental period.
- the demand for extra money was not part of the agreement, was after the fact, and will not be paid
- you note that the deposit was not protected. you reserve the right to address that matter if required.

The point is *not* to argue with the LL - he knows the real position. It is simply to establish the facts as you see them and make it clear you have the bones of an argument in court.

Yes, will write this letter now and send it to him. Weirdly the landlord address is the same as the agent's address!

You will probably find (although no-one can guarantee it) that will be the last you hear on the matter. Ultimately unless court documents drop through your letterbox then it's all just hot air.

stressedtenant

Ok some developments.

Agent says we don't have to pay 6 weeks rent (£950) he will just keep deposit (£650) and surrender tenancy.

spoken to CAB:

You are legally responsible to pay the rent for the full tenancy period. If you agree that the landlord can keep the deposit and come to an agreement with him, there is no benefit fro you if you take legal action against the landlord.

Feel very tempted to let him keep £650 as much as it kills me, and have learnt lesson that I will never forget! Just don't think the stress of this situation of sleepless nights is worth it. At least I don't have to pay anything more out.

However I thought I want to report the landlord to an ombudsman of some kind for not keeping deposits in gov scheme. Does anyone know of who to report this to?

princeofpounds

OK thanks for the update. One slightly tragic thing I misunderstood. I thought that the LA had actually taken back possession of the property, so there wouldn't be any debate about the amount of rent owed (as opposed to 'settlement money').

(It's not the keys per se that actually matter, but how they behave in relation to the property). And subsequently the LL had demanded more money.

If they haven't done so then you are still the tenants and your rental liability is continuing.

The remaining three months (?) of rent are £1900.

If you sue, you might win £650 - 1950.

The 650 is probably not the worst deal then.

tumbledowngirl

Just to give you the other side of the coin -


We had tenants who were on a 12 month AST.
At 6 months, they requested surrender of the tenancy. We said no.
The tenants left the property anyway, and forged a 6 month AST to support their argument that they could.


After a long drawn out battle, including solicitors writing to demand rent owed until the date new tenants moved in, the deposit scheme ruled that we were allowed to keep the deposit on the basis of unpaid rent.
However, that only covered one month, not the 2 we were owed.


Our solicitor advised us against going down the small claims route for such a small amount, so we have not persued it.