Can I be forced to pay top up funds for care home ?

ladybelle

Thank you all so very much. I think it *may* be ok now. The Social Worker was very blunt with the Manager and more or less gave her an ultimatum - was she going to accept the deal the Council would pay to or was she going to give them notice !!! She said she would have to confirm with the owners but she thought they would accept it, so hopefully it will be ok. SW is now on holiday for 3 weeks so I have to sit on it until then until I get final paperwork and hear from her again with the figures etc.
When Mum had her stroke and moved into the home, she had the full assessment whether she was eligible for continuing care. In spite of my objections they said she wasnt eligible and was only eligible for the NHS funding of approx £110 a week. She's had that ever since.
When Dad became ill in February, and then came back from hospital to the home in April, I was told that he was now eligible for this payment too. To my knowledge there has been no meeting or discussion !! and I've been waiting all this time for the social worker, and ringing and ringing to get a new care plan and sort the funding out. It's been a total nightmare.
They are in a Nursing home, and the local Authority fully funded until the house was sold, then I had to pay thousands back and we've been fully funding up until July when their money went under the £23,250 threshold. Their entire life savings has been depleted over the past 2 and a half years.
I mean they still have now just around £40,000 between them but that is still dwindling every month.
I dont know if a CRAG meeting was ever held ? if it was I was not invited.

monkeyspanner

Sorry to hear your position it must be very stressful, particularly dealing with both parents care situations and the establishment seeming to work for the system rather than provide assisstance.
-The nursing supplement should be a fall back position after CHC assessment however it may be that a CHC checklist was performed and it was thought your dad did not need a full assessment. If it is some time since your mum was assessed it may be worth asking for another assessment.
-Did you get the results of the original assessment for your mum or were you kept out of the process? You should have been given the opportunity to comment and lodge an appeal if required.
-Were your parents getting attendance allowance when self funding?
- Whilst selling the house was its value disregarded from any assessment for the first 12weeks or was this not relevant due to other savings.
-Now the council are providing assistance both your parents will have to contribute the majority of their pension and they will be assessed as having "nominal income" until their saving fall lower still. They will both be left with a weekly allowance of about £20.

I hope everything resolves over the next few weeks.

stevemLS

monkeyspanner wrote: »

You are correct no one can be forced to pay for another persons care and this also applies to husband and wife. The SS often try to blackmail relatives into agreeing to pay third party top-up fees with the threat of a resident having to move to a home which will accept the often inadequate level of council support. It is also not permissable to pay your own top-up fees once you are under the savings limit and the social worker should not have suggested that you could use your father's savings.

Before any move is undertaken the council should undertake a risk assessment (physical and metal) regarding the potential move. Although your condition would probably not be taken into account, the fact that you would not be able to visit and the affect of that on your parents wellbeing should be considered. In addition the council are not permitted to ask for third party top-up fees if they cannot find a suitable alternative care home in the local area which has a vacant place and will accept the council level of fees for the care need required. If this alternate place cannot be found they are obliged to pay the care home fees.

You mention your mum is totally immobile following a stroke, has she had an assessment for NHS funded continuing healthcare (CHC)? I would ask for an assessment and a retrospective review. How long has she been immobile? If awarded CHC funding she would not pay any fees and would not been means tested. It is possible she should never have been expected to pay for her care. CHC funding is notoriously difficult to obtain but many people do succeed if they are persistent.

First step I think would be to insist on a case meeting to discuss what the SS are going to do about a care plan for your dad and I would also ask that they organise a CHC assessment for your mum. The CHC assessment team is now under the control of the GP commissioning groups so if the SS will not organise an assessment for you they can be approached directly. Incidentally on discharge from hospital your dad should have had a CHC funding checklist completed to see if a full assessment should be performed. If this was not done the hospital discharge team have not complied with CRAG (Charging for residential accommodation guide). If you can get this meeting set up I would suggest taking someone with you so you have a witness to the discussion and any agreement. I know it sounds paranoid but past personal experience with NHS and SS has not been positive.

If you would like me to dig out the relevant document sections regarding funding please let me know and I will try to post links.

As I suggested in post 3

cattermole

Some excellent informative answers.

You sure have been doing some reading Sandra xx

Crazy the level of knowledge one needs.

The interesting thing is Councils only seem to have this figure they are prepared to pay for over 65's!

They have a duty to meet the need.

Hope you get it sorted for your parents. Xx

SandraScarlett

cattermole wrote: »

Some excellent informative answers.

You sure have been doing some reading Sandra xx

Crazy the level of knowledge one needs.

The interesting thing is Councils only seem to have this figure they are prepared to pay for over 65's!

They have a duty to meet the need.

Hope you get it sorted for your parents. Xx

Well you helped me enormously a couple of years ago, thank you, when DH's condition deteriorated to the extent that instead of paying £1.50 a day, at the Centre he attended, I was told he'd have to be a Day Opportunities member, at a cost of £9 - an hour! You led me through the labyrinth of Direct Payments, and you were there when I needed help badly.


Just to let the OP know, CRAG stands for Charges for Residential Accommodation Guidance, and is a Governmental report, containing all the information, rules and regulations regarding Care Home Fees, and is available online. It is based on the 1948 National Assistance Act, and should I ever be invited to go on Mastermind, this would be my specialist subject!


I couldn't read a paragraph at a time, only one sentence, several times, and discard the "notwithstandings", "whosoevers", and umpteen references, and then if I felt it applied to DH, I copied and pasted it to a file.


Time consuming? Undoubtedly. Worth it? Definitely! I also Googled CRAG, and came up with much smaller condensed reports, 24 pages or so, that are issued to MPs, so that they can give advice at their surgeries.


Care Homes are a business, and I can't say I blame them, for attempting to get top up fees paid. Similarly, the Local Authorities are having to cut their Money Cake into so many slices, that they're virtually just crumbs, and unless you know your facts, you won't get anywhere.


But if you don't ask, you won't get. And unfortunately, the rules for not only LAs but also the National Health Service, are not the same nationwide, though the name suggests they should be. I had another battle to get incontinence pants for DH supplied, as my LA would only offer pads.


However, if I lived in Leeds, I would have the choice for DH. Pads are OK if you're bedbound, but if you're not, they have a tendency to twist round, becoming useless. My response was that I was unaware there was a postcode for wee (!), that DH was being penalised for having Alzheimer's, but not being bedbound and could they please tell me how I should contact the Court of Human Rights, so that I could take my complaint there.


I never swear, I never shout, even though my tongue is nearly severed, and I have to bite the inside of my cheek, hard, but within a day, I was contacted to be told he'd get 14 pants a week!


It is so unfair that family members are frantic with worry, and often sign up to things that aren't compulsory, just because the information isn't easily available. I belong to several sites, where Care Home fees are a huge topic, and I also voluntarily help with form filling at my local Age Concern Centre.


None of this helps DH, and his sad deterioration, but it passes the help on. OH, to answer your first post again, and for anyone else going through this horrendous time, top up fees are not compulsory!!!


xx

Scully38

ladybelle wrote: »

Well I know in theory I cant - as I simply cannot afford to pay ! My parents are in a nursing home, all was settled and agreed - they have now reached the point where they are under the threshold so the County Council have started paying some of the fees.

Back in February my Dad had a fall, fractured his hip, then went into kidney failure, and we nearly lost him. He recovered slowly and returned to the home in April, ever since then we have battled with Social Services to get the new care plan in place and reviewed etc. The home had said they wanted his fees to go up from previous residential rate of £390 to a whopping £632 as he was now nursing care.

Now I do not dispute the fact he is nursing at all, but I do dispute the high amount as he now is almost back to where he was before ! fully mobile, takes himself off to the toilet etc. My Mother who was the illest when they went in as she had a stroke is still totally immobile and needs nursing care and her fees have only ever been £421 a week !!

So in July their money reached the £23,000 limit (each) and the CC have been paying some of the fees.

This email from the Social Worker has said firstly that I have to top it up out of my money. I cant possibly afford that !! which the Council have always known anyway. Secondly she then says that I could use Dad's money ?? Now I have always understood that it is not possible to use their money for top up fees ?? I'm sure I read that somewhere once ?? but anyway -e ven if it were possible - if I do that now all it will achieve is deplete their money quicker and mean the Council will be fully funding them !!

But of course my biggest fear is that if the home wont budge - they could be forced out !!!

I dont know what to do ! Can a family be forced to pay if they cant afford it ? Do Care home really evict elderly frail residents !!!

My situation was similar to use, my dad had terminal cancer, and my mom became paraplegic after breaking her neck and being placed into a halo, when my dad was in the hospice we didn't have pay for his care, but he was only in there for 2 weeks before he died. As for my mom, after a year in hospital, mom came home and had carers 4 times a day of which my mom and I paid the carers £2800 per month (paid from me, mom's DLA and Independent Living Fund (now gone). Social services paid the remaining balance.

When mom had to go into a nursing home after her health deteriorated. I wasn't expected to pay for her care at all. Mom wasn't told to sell her house, instead she received what's called 'Continued Health Care' which meant the the NHS paid for my mom's care in full. Mom's DLA money was used to pay for specialist equipment (special phone and TV controlled by voice command, podiatry, specially hair wash etc...) At no point did the social service ask me for money. They can't do that. Even though you're family, the Social Services have no authority to force another family member to pay for care. They can get someone to sell the property etc..., but as for focing you, they can't. I'd contact citizen's advice if I were you.

Here's the link to the NHS for contued health care, which sounds as if your mom and dad may qualify for. It's certainly worth asking the question, and see what they say, but you should have an assessment to being the main carer, the social services also have a responsibility to you as well as putting together a care plan for you parents.

Here's the link for continued health care.

Good luck.

Mojisola

Scully38 wrote: »

At no point did the social service ask me for money. They can't do that. Even though you're family, the Social Services have no authority to force another family member to pay for care.

If a person is going into residential care there are several options. If they have no special health needs and are funded by the LA, they will be placed in a home that accepts the rate that the LA pays.

If that person has relatives who would like the person to go into a more expensive home, that can be arranged if some-one signs up to pay the top-up fees - the difference between the LA rate and the care home rate.

Scully38

Mojisola wrote: »

If a person is going into residential care there are several options. If they have no special health needs and are funded by the LA, they will be placed in a home that accepts the rate that the LA pays.

If that person has relatives who would like the person to go into a more expensive home, that can be arranged if some-one signs up to pay the top-up fees - the difference between the LA rate and the care home rate.

Absolutely, because we know that more expensive care, the fees if it goes above the threshold will fall to the patient and the patient's assets, or from a family member if they have agreed to it.

My mom's nursing home fees per week were nearly £1000 a week, which the NHS paid, due to mom's complex medical problems. I spent weeks visiting all the nursing homes, some were horrendous, but that's for another thread...:p For me, price didn't even come into it. My primary goal was to find the best home available, which I did, but luckily it was at the limit of the CHC. If it was more, then it would fall to mom to pay for it (even if it meant selling her home to pay for care), or if mom needed extra money, i'd pay for it (voluntarily) to ensure my mom received the best care.

I would though ask them to clarify why your dad's bill is higher than your mom's if he needs a lot less care. Ask them to explain your mom's care plan and financial implications and then ask the same about your father's. They still have a responsibility to clarify and quantify their costs.

sulkisu

Slightly off topic (okay, very off topic) but I hope that you are seeking help for your agoraphobia, as well as dealing with your parents health and care issues. Things might be little easier if you were not restricted to local care homes.

ladybelle

I've had agoraphobia for 27 years now . I've had practically every single form of therapy over the years. Nothing ever 'cured' me, or worked long term. I have reached a point where this is now simply my life. It's very restrictive yes, but I can do limited things locally and can get to my local town with a family member, I work locally but had a crisis recently when asked to move offices. I had support from Access to Work who fund a taxi for me as I cannot drive across town on my own without panicking. (Actually getting paid is a looong other story which I wont go into - suffice to say still waiting since June for my taxi fares to be paid to me !!!)
I have asked why my Dad's fees are higher than my Mum's and didnt really get an answer other than to say his anxiety needs were high. That was back in April when he came home from hospital and I can agree his needs were very high then, but now is a different story - but they wont be budged from this high (I feel excessive) amount !
However, as they are now not fully funding as they have depleted all their entire funds the Council are now paying some of the fees, and I understand it is the Council who will pay the back pay to the home ? but I'm waiting for my paperwork to come through now, however the Social Worker is now on leave until 13th October so I dont expect to hear before mid October.
It' s just dragging on and on and on.