redundancy dilemma

Karen1967

Hello

I was made redundant from the NHS on 1/9/14 and the letter I received states that I must not obtain employment with the same or another NHS employer within 28 days or I forfeit my redundancy pay. I have since been verbally offered another NHS job that I want to accept (it is at a lower grade, so not perfect) but have told the employer that I am unable to do so until after the 28 day period. Is it ok to do that? If not, am I now allowed to decline the offer? Btw I have not actually received my money yet, I am due to get it at the end of the month and it is quite a lot to lose after 15 years service.

Also, what does "obtain" employment actually mean? Does just getting a verbal job offer count? As I won't actually have obtained the job until I at least get something in writing, references are accepted and other checks are done. I probably wouldn't start the new job for another couple of months.

I would be grateful if anyone could help me out with this dilemma.

getmore4less

Check the Terms carefully why apply if you want the redundancy?
your trust rules A4C.

remember although you lose redundancy you retain continuous employment which can give other benefits like extra holiday.

Karen1967

Hi getmore4less

Thanks for your comments/advice. I applied for the job a couple of months ago when I was "At Risk" of redundancy but was only recently invited for interview. I attended so that I could get a bit of practice in and I didn't expect to get offered it as I have very little of the experience they require. Btw it is with a different Trust to the one I worked for previously.

I have checked the A4C terms and it says that I lose my redundancy pay if I obtain suitable alternative employment with a hospital Trust within 28 days. I feel that I haven't actually obtained employment yet, if I can put it this way - I wouldn't hand in my notice at one job until I had a new job offer in writing, so I feel the same applies here. Also I could argue that it is not really suitable alternative employment as it is at a lower grade and the hours are such that I will have to find & pay for childcare, which I didn't previously. In fact I can only really afford to work there if I get my redundancy pay!

I feel like such an idiot! All I want to do now is decline the offer and forget all about it.

Another_not_new_user

Karen1967 wrote: »

Hi getmore4less

Thanks for your comments/advice. I applied for the job a couple of months ago when I was "At Risk" of redundancy but was only recently invited for interview. I attended so that I could get a bit of practice in and I didn't expect to get offered it as I have very little of the experience they require. Btw it is with a different Trust to the one I worked for previously.

I have checked the A4C terms and it says that I lose my redundancy pay if I obtain suitable alternative employment with a hospital Trust within 28 days. I feel that I haven't actually obtained employment yet, if I can put it this way - I wouldn't hand in my notice at one job until I had a new job offer in writing, so I feel the same applies here. Also I could argue that it is not really suitable alternative employment as it is at a lower grade and the hours are such that I will have to find & pay for childcare, which I didn't previously. In fact I can only really afford to work there if I get my redundancy pay!

I feel like such an idiot! All I want to do now is decline the offer and forget all about it.

Do not even consider declining it or you could end up without redundancy pay and without a job! Legally you made it a suitable alternative the minute you submitted an application - having been offered the post you now are "stuck with it" in terms of the redundancy. My understanding is that "obtaining employment" means being made an offer, but I can't say whether that is NHS rules - it certainly is the case in legal terms that an offer of employment constitutes gaining employment. But the circumstances are not exactly the same so it does depend on exactly what the terms of the NHS are. But the bottom line is that declining an offer of a job you applied for quite certainly does make it refusing suitable employment, so the only real question is whether the regulations for the NHS consider an unconfirmed offer obtaining employment. It is too late to turn back the clock to what you wish you had done - you will have to find out what the situation is and deal with that.

pmarsh1986

i disagree completely. An offer of employment is not acceptance or 'obtaining' of employment as both sides can refuse this non-binding offer. Do you have case law that points to your assertion? If that was indeed the case then someone on JSA would lose their entitlement to that benefit simply for being given a verbal offer of employment. Sorry but that clearly does not happen.

In my opinion, 'obtaining' a job would be when both parties agree to terms - whether through formal contract - and a start date i.e. they are officially an employee. As an NHS worker myself, I wasn't allowed to start without a signed contract of employment which mentioned my start date.

OP: the difference in banding is irrelevant. From reading A4C handbook, it is any employment not just a comparable band/job. Unless suitable could be argued as just that but I doubt it.

"at the date of the termination of the contract have obtained without a break, or with a break not exceeding four weeks, suitable alternative employment with the same or another NHS employer"

Armorica

If you are a member of a union, I'd suggest asking them

Another_not_new_user

pmarsh1986 wrote: »

i disagree completely. An offer of employment is not acceptance or 'obtaining' of employment as both sides can refuse this non-binding offer. Do you have case law that points to your assertion? If that was indeed the case then someone on JSA would lose their entitlement to that benefit simply for being given a verbal offer of employment. Sorry but that clearly does not happen.

In my opinion, 'obtaining' a job would be when both parties agree to terms - whether through formal contract - and a start date i.e. they are officially an employee. As an NHS worker myself, I wasn't allowed to start without a signed contract of employment which mentioned my start date.

OP: the difference in banding is irrelevant. From reading A4C handbook, it is any employment not just a comparable band/job. Unless suitable could be argued as just that but I doubt it.

You may disagree as much as you like. The fact is that obtaining an offer of employment, whether you accept it or not, impacts on the entitlement to redundancy pay in law. Declining an offer constitutes intentional unemployment. Redundancy pay is not a free gift - it is compensation for losing employment, and if the loss of employment does not happen, or happens as a result of the employees refusal of other employment, then entitlement ceases.As I said, the two scenarios are not exactly the same because we are not talking about the legal position but the rules governing NHS redundancies and employment with an associated employer. Which is why I said that simply declining the job and hoping for the best is not a realistic strategy, and the OP needs to work with where they are, not where they would wish to be.


I am not sure what JSA has to do with this. I was talking about the law as it applied to redundancy, not JSA.

TBagpuss

Another_not_new_user wrote: »

You may disagree as much as you like. The fact is that obtaining an offer of employment, whether you accept it or not, impacts on the entitlement to redundancy pay in law. Declining an offer constitutes intentional unemployment. Redundancy pay is not a free gift - it is compensation for losing employment, and if the loss of employment does not happen, or happens as a result of the employees refusal of other employment, then entitlement ceases.As I said, the two scenarios are not exactly the same because we are not talking about the legal position but the rules governing NHS redundancies and employment with an associated employer. Which is why I said that simply declining the job and hoping for the best is not a realistic strategy, and the OP needs to work with where they are, not where they would wish to be.


I am not sure what JSA has to do with this. I was talking about the law as it applied to redundancy, not JSA.

Can you point to the law you are referencing?

OP, I think that you would be fine to decline to offer. You can (if you are concerned by Another No New User's Scaremongering) specify that you are declining as, having given the mater consideration, the job is not suitable for you as the pay cut compared with your previous job, plus the costs of travel and childcare, mean it will not be appropriate for you.

If you chose to accept that job, you would be treated as though you had been employed with no break, which would give you some benefits - for instance, normally, you don't have any redundancy rights, or rights no to be dismissed until you have been employed for 2+ years. If you don't get this redundancy then you are treated as being continuously employed, so you start with you 1 years service etc.

I would suggest that you speak to your union who can clarify the definitions for you.

Another_not_new_user

This is not scaremongering. The right to refuse an offer of employment is enshrined within sections 141(2) and 141(3)(b) of the Employment Rights Act 1996 where the employer offers an alternative position which is deemed by the employee to be unsuitable. Of course, whether a tribunal agrees with that is another matter. However, the employer did not offer an alternative - the OP applied for a position with an associated employer, which for legal purposes in this situation is the same employer. When you apply for a job then you are deemed to have accepted it as a suitable alternative if it is with the same employer - which in this situation it is, because it is with an associated employer. Hence my advice to ensure what the position is within the NHS policy - which I have said repeatedly I do not know, and which it seems nobody else here knows either. But in similar public sector organisations, such an offer may preserve continuous service but end entitlement to redundancy payments. So simply turning down the job is not an option without being absolutely sure what the position is. Because there is absolutely no chance that the associated employers would not communicate.


The key factor here is not whether it would be a suitable alternative in other circumstances - it is the fact the OP APPLIED for it. In applying they are saying they WANT the job. If it was not a suitable job for them, they shouldn't have applied. Many employees are conned by employers into the gem of "applying for jobs" that are on substantially lower conditions - the minute they do they are accepting that job as a suitable alternative. In this case the employer didn't even do that - the OP applied on their own.


It seems that we are all saying the same thing here - the OP needs to find out what the rules for the NHS actually say. But I am the bad guy for saying that they shouldn't make assumptions that it will all be ok so they should ignore the fact that these are associated employers. The OP wouldn't have been posting here is they didn't already realise that they may have inadvertently done something foolish. And yes, they may have done. They also may not have done. But simply saying it's all going to be all right despite the fact that none of us knows that is not rational. It is not scaremongering to say that it may not be all right, so the OP needs to find out what the rules actually are. As I said, they cannot turn back the clock. What is done is done, and there is no way that IF this is against the NHS redundancy procedures that they won't find out. So, as I said, the only option is to ask and see what is said.

Karen1967

Thanks for all your comments and advice. Just to let you know, job offer has now been withdrawn as they are unable to secure funding for the post (something they mentioned might be a problem when they interviewed me). So all that worry over nothing!