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Title Plan Rights of Way Clarification
evilsheep
Posts: 232 Forumite
Hello there
After years of renting, we're looking at buying a lovely house, which could mean halving our monthly rental costs (thanks to the low house price), and of course as we'd be paying a mortgage rather than rent, we can actually do crazy things like nail a picture to a wall without having to have written permission! (and we can carry out repairs ... but I've ranted enough about that in another thread).
We viewed a property this morning and saw that a car was parked in the small yard at the back of the house, literally right outside the back door. Apparently this car belongs to the next-door neighbour, whose garden has a gate which opens onto this yard. The estate agent assured us that the yard belonged to 'our' house (let's call it No.1), but that next door (No.2) was allowed access/right-of-way to his garden through the yard.
No.2's garden is completely surrounded by a high fence, and also appears to contain an old outhouse, whose door also opens onto No.1's land. The agent suggested that the owner of No.2 hadn't been particularly chatty to them when they were putting the 'For Sale' board up, but that that was just because they were estate agents (fair enough I guess!), so she suggested we see if he was in and speak to him to clarify access if we needed reassuring of his use of No.1's yard.
He wasn't at home, but a neighbour opposite the yard was, so we asked him about the access rights. He said that No.2 had shown him plans which showed that No.2 actually owned the yard, and that was why he parked his car there, and that it was actually No.1 who only had access rights. So, this would mean that, even though No.1's kitchen/back door opened onto this small triangle of land, No.2 owns it and could park their car on it, effectively obstructing easy access to No.1's back door. We left our phone number with this neighbour, and asked that he pass it on to No.1 if he saw them.
We've since paid to view the Title Register and plan for both No.1 and No.2 (on the Land Registry Website and see the following on the plan:
No.2's property is along the bottom of the red boundary, the yard is the hatched area, and No.2's outhouse/garden gate opens onto this hatched area too.
On No.1's title register (in the 'Charges Register' section), the following is written (Jane Bloggs is the current owner of No.1):
(22.06.2001) By a Transfer dated 25 May 2001 made between (1) Joe Bloggs (Transferor) and (2) Jane Bloggs (Transferee)
the land was transferred subject as follows:-
"SUBJECT TO A RIGHT OF WAY WITHOUT VEHICLES over the hatched black on
the attached plan"
My question is, basically, what does this mean? Does this mean that No.1 owns the hatched land, but has to allow right of access to neighbouring properties (but only pedestrian access, not vehicular access?). Or does it mean that Joe Bloggs owns the land, but allows Jane Bloggs of No.1 to access her property, but not park her vehicle there?
We've also downloaded the title register and plan for No.2 and see that the yard (hatched area) is very much not included on their plan, but that they have a right of way granted by the same Joe Bloggs (who is not the owner apparently of No.2), but on the other side of their property to No.1. There is no mention whatsoever of any right-of-way onto No.1's yard.
Hopefully someone can help me with this, as we're very keen on putting in an offer on this property, but obviously the ownership/access of this hatched area would have quite on our offer price.
Many thanks in advance!
After years of renting, we're looking at buying a lovely house, which could mean halving our monthly rental costs (thanks to the low house price), and of course as we'd be paying a mortgage rather than rent, we can actually do crazy things like nail a picture to a wall without having to have written permission! (and we can carry out repairs ... but I've ranted enough about that in another thread).
We viewed a property this morning and saw that a car was parked in the small yard at the back of the house, literally right outside the back door. Apparently this car belongs to the next-door neighbour, whose garden has a gate which opens onto this yard. The estate agent assured us that the yard belonged to 'our' house (let's call it No.1), but that next door (No.2) was allowed access/right-of-way to his garden through the yard.
No.2's garden is completely surrounded by a high fence, and also appears to contain an old outhouse, whose door also opens onto No.1's land. The agent suggested that the owner of No.2 hadn't been particularly chatty to them when they were putting the 'For Sale' board up, but that that was just because they were estate agents (fair enough I guess!), so she suggested we see if he was in and speak to him to clarify access if we needed reassuring of his use of No.1's yard.
He wasn't at home, but a neighbour opposite the yard was, so we asked him about the access rights. He said that No.2 had shown him plans which showed that No.2 actually owned the yard, and that was why he parked his car there, and that it was actually No.1 who only had access rights. So, this would mean that, even though No.1's kitchen/back door opened onto this small triangle of land, No.2 owns it and could park their car on it, effectively obstructing easy access to No.1's back door. We left our phone number with this neighbour, and asked that he pass it on to No.1 if he saw them.
We've since paid to view the Title Register and plan for both No.1 and No.2 (on the Land Registry Website and see the following on the plan:
No.2's property is along the bottom of the red boundary, the yard is the hatched area, and No.2's outhouse/garden gate opens onto this hatched area too.
On No.1's title register (in the 'Charges Register' section), the following is written (Jane Bloggs is the current owner of No.1):
(22.06.2001) By a Transfer dated 25 May 2001 made between (1) Joe Bloggs (Transferor) and (2) Jane Bloggs (Transferee)
the land was transferred subject as follows:-
"SUBJECT TO A RIGHT OF WAY WITHOUT VEHICLES over the hatched black on
the attached plan"
My question is, basically, what does this mean? Does this mean that No.1 owns the hatched land, but has to allow right of access to neighbouring properties (but only pedestrian access, not vehicular access?). Or does it mean that Joe Bloggs owns the land, but allows Jane Bloggs of No.1 to access her property, but not park her vehicle there?
We've also downloaded the title register and plan for No.2 and see that the yard (hatched area) is very much not included on their plan, but that they have a right of way granted by the same Joe Bloggs (who is not the owner apparently of No.2), but on the other side of their property to No.1. There is no mention whatsoever of any right-of-way onto No.1's yard.
Hopefully someone can help me with this, as we're very keen on putting in an offer on this property, but obviously the ownership/access of this hatched area would have quite on our offer price.
Many thanks in advance!
0
Comments
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So the diagramme above is No 1? It seems
* No 1 owns the yard - it is included on No1's Title Plan
* in 2001, No1 bought the yard and granted a ROW (excluding vehicles) to someone as a condition of the purchase.
* No 2 does not own the yard - it is excluded from their Title Plan
* No2 has a ROW (somewhere)
I suggest you obtain a copy of the Transfer dated 2001. If the Land registry reference to it says: "copy filed" then you can get it for £7.
https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/copies-of-deeds
I suggest you also knock on the door of N2 again at some point, though given they are your potential neighbour, be diplomatic.
Is No 1 occupied? Can you ask the owner rather than their agent? Remember,
a) agent is unlikely to know
b) agent just wants a sale - so may say, or intimate, whatever they think sounds best!0 -
Sorry, yes the diagram is for house No.1
No.1 is a vacant possession, and the agents says the owner hasn't been replying to texts or emails for the last week or so.
We'd be happy to allow No.2 access to their gate (even though Google street view shows that the yard was once used as garden, with pots and plants apparently obstructing this access), but are just rather nervous of buying a property where the neighbour insists (and allegedly has boundary plan documents) to show that he owns the yard.
We'll be speaking to the agent again on Monday, and hopefully she'll have heard from the vendor by then. I can't see anything saying 'copy filed' on the Land Registry reference; would a survey (if we went ahead with an offer) provide a definitive answer to this boundary question?0 -
90% of sales are 'vacant possession'. I assume you mean 'currently vacant'?No.1 is a vacant possession, and the agents says the owner hasn't been replying to texts or emails for the last week or so.
I thought you said:..are just rather nervous of buying a property where the neighbour insists (and allegedly has boundary plan documents) to show that he owns the yard.
So does or does not their Plan include the yard?We've also downloaded the title register and plan for No.2 and see that the yard (hatched area) is very much not included on their plan,
As advised - ignore the agent. Whatever they say. Rely on your own investigations.We'll be speaking to the agent again on Monday, and hopefully she'll have heard from the vendor by then. I can't see anything saying 'copy filed' on the Land Registry reference; would a survey (if we went ahead with an offer) provide a definitive answer to this boundary question
A survey will not answer your concerns. This is a legal matter. Surveyors are not legally trained.
I would advise in a case like this that you do not do the conveyancing yourself. Employ a solicitor and make sure they are aware of your specific concerns, and the specific layout of the properties and yard.0 -
My mistake, I thought 'vacant possession' meant that there was no-one living in the property and therefore there was no chain.
Here's their plan:
(the brown shaded area is their right-of-way)
This was downloaded earlier today.
We'll most definitely not be doing the conveyancing ourselves (although I will be checking their progress more often this time, after a previous experience where documents were left in an in-tray whilst the solicitor in question went on holiday for 3 weeks ...)0 -
Brown? Where?
Just answer the question. Does the Plan for house 2 include the yard? Yes or no?
If no, does their Title include a ROW across the yard? Yes or no?0 -
Brown? Where?
The yellow/brown line to the bottom is the right of way I mentioned in post#1 (that's between house No.2 + 3)Just answer the question. Does the Plan for house 2 include the yard? Yes or no?
No, as you can see from comparing both images, the yard is the triangular area at the top of No.2's plans.If no, does their Title include a ROW across the yard? Yes or no?
The only ROW mentioned on the documents we've downloaded for No.2 is the one indicated by the yellow/brown line. My confusion stemmed from the owner of No.2 apparently/allegedly having plans which show that he owns the yard.0 -
If he has plans which
a) you have not seen
b) you have not shown us here
c) may or may not actually exist
how can we possibly comment on whether they have any legal force?
The conclusion from what you have said and shown us is that
a) the yard is yours
b) the neighbour has no ROW over it
The assumption is that
* there is an informal agreement by the current owners to let the neighbour use it or
* the neighbour is using it without the knowledge of the (non-resident) owners.0 -
I was merely seeking clarification on what the wording meant in the title register and plan (as I tried to explain in post 1), and whether the red boundary line is definitely the legal boundary and that the neighbour is fibbing about having plans showing that he owns the yard. And, given that I've downloaded the register and plan today, that these were the most up-to-date plans of the property (and therefore that his alleged boundary plans are less up-to-date and also incorrect).
I will of course be seeking legal assistance when buying the house but the offer amount we hope to make on Monday is going to be dictated by the ownership of the yard. Hence me asking for advice from people who understand much more about title registers and plans than I do.
I have tried to be as clear as possible in my questions, but clearly I've failed in this. Apologies for having irritated you, G_M0 -
Knock on the neighbours door and talk to them, tell them that you are thinking of buying the house and if you do then they won't be able to use the yard anymore, gauge there reaction. They realise that they can only park there while its empty and stop doing it once you move in.0
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