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Need help and advice - hubbys PIP decision
psammead
Posts: 39 Forumite
Please can anyone help us? I apologise in advance for how long and convoluted this post - I just really need anything that can help reassure us everything will be ok 
There is also a shorted version of this post in another forum where I have had some useful links posted but thought I would ask on here too.
My hubby has had DLA at the highest mobility rate and middle care rate for the last 10 years. He got the PIP renewal pack through in January and had his f2f approx 8 weeks ago.
He has just had the decision through and been told he doesn't qualify for any kind of daily living and only the lowest mobility rate which means his car will now have to go back.
He's been awarded 6 for daily living and 10 for mobility.
Tried ringing them because the reasons given are ludicrous! But i got told they could do nothing until the decision maker rings on the 20th (do they ring on a Saturday?) and I can explain it to them.
They've scored him zero for so many things that do apply to him. Just about the only things he doesn't need help with is communicating. They claim because he uses crutches to struggle walking 10 mtrs it means he can walk over 20 metres and also because he uses an electric scooter which he can't take out the car or assemble himself (its a very large scooter that has to be taken apart to fit in the MPV car and we can't use a hoist - looked into having one before and can't use a special vehicle as we need the back seat space for the kids)! There are just so many more things they seem to grossly underscored him for. He is incontinent and needs help to wash his lower half but he can manage his toilet needs! Because he can't use the shower (its upstairs and we are waiting for a downstairs washroom to be fitted - 2 yrs so far!) he doesn't get any points for that. But even with a reachable shower he couldn't use it without me. All the psychiatric ex army nurse kept saying who saw him at the f2f was "so really then its your surroundings that stop you" - erm no its the fact he can't physically do xyz!!!!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
He also kept saying things like - do you have any evidence? This was for things like his depression (he refuses medication so no proof on his prescription) and anxiety (again refuses any help!) among others. As he could not provide any or even understand what evidence would good enough he was told that he couldn't claim for it. When I asked what evidence he needed he said well thats up to you to decide, I can't tell you as it would be seen as me leading your answers. When he asked hubby if he felt he had depression he said no so he said I must take his answer, even though he has took an overdose in the past? Hubby though keeps telling everyone it was accidental so it was not logged as a suicide attempt but I found him and heard what he said and saw the note (since burned unfortunately). Oh but he can manage his meds ok by himself. He can't do his own injection (he's a diabetic) and since his overdose i keep all his tabs locked away and give him what he needs. That didn't count though as physically there's no reason he can't manage himself.
He would also say things like 'remember other government departments will read this report so bear that in mind when it comes to how you can drive etc. Remember if you can't get somewhere on your own other departments may start to question your driving ability' so of course my husband said yes I can plan and undertake any journey on my own - even though I said it wasn't true, he panics if theres a road block or traffic jam and if I weren't there with him he wouldn't know where to go next or what to do!! All he would say was I have to take your husbands answer and as you don't have evidence anyway it wouldn't make any difference!!!
One thing i have found out is that the descriptor must apply to using unadapted devises such as a 'normal toilet, bath or shower' This guy asked if you have a toilet that were able to clean and dry you afterwards would you be able to manage your toileting needs to which my hubby answered yes because he could. However using an unadapted toilet when he has wet or messed himself then no he can't. They have even awarded him 2 points because he can't wash his hair or below his waist but they claim he is able to clean himself up after having an accident. If he can't clean himself below the waist how is he able to wash poo etc off and dry himself and use barrier cream? Also what about putting clean cloths back on by himself when they've already given him points because he needs help to dress his lower half!
He asked hubby how far he could walk so he said he can walk from his chair (next to the front door) to the car door using 2 crutches and this takes him around 5mins with rest stops. So the nurse said so around 20 metres then to which hubby said yes if thats how far it is. Its isn't 20 metres - its 10, i've measured. Again I disagreed but all he would say is I have to take his answer. And in my opinion 5 mins is not performing an activity in a timely manner! It takes me a few seconds.
Oh God sorry for rambling, I just don't understand how they have got to this decision - he's gone from being unable or virtually unable to walk on DLA to being able to walk at least 20 metres with no improvement in his condition, in fact he's worse.
I mean do they ring on a Saturday which is the earliest date he will ring? They don't work then! So that means waiting til Monday after spending Saturday on tenterhooks waiting for the phone to ring.
Also will the decision maker be able to change his mind during that phone call or will he have to go away and think about it?
I will add they did get a report from his GP but of course when he goes there he's all laughing and smiling and "I'm fine!".
Oh and what would be the aid or appliance he could use to cook a meal? He needs 2 crutches to even stand and then after a minute his legs begin to shake and cramp, if he stands for much longer then they just give way. He can't use a perching stool as he also has menieres syndrome which means he is constantly dizzy with spells where it flares up so he he again would need crutches to stabilise himself on a stool even if he did feel safe using one. So how then with his hands full of crutches, feeling dizzy and sick, legs giving way and agony from being riddled with arthritis does he move between surfaces/appliances carrying hot pans or a knife/plate and cook a simple meal from fresh ingredients? What possible aid or appliance would mean he could? He also takes Warfarin following DVT and clots on the lungs so he is at higher risk of serious internal bleed if he were to fall or if he cut himself he would also bleed much more profusely potentially fatally.
Am I on the right sort of lines if I say these things to the decision maker? I have checked out the descriptors before we claimed but doesn't seem to have made any difference, they just seem to ignore them. I also checked out some of the links other helpful people posted but I am struggling to make sense of them fully though I have learned a few things such as descriptors must apply to unadapted appliances.
I am worried too because i think the report does not say what the assessor said as on the decision makers report there is no mention of using adapted toilets or kitchens yet when he read back what he had put there were lots of "if he had everything to hand and the right adjustments and by that i don't mean a perching stool or special cutlery or pans he could cook a meal and use the toilet unaided". Being honest by that point 2 hours in my husband would have agreed to being Jack the Ripper if it meant it were over!!!!
And of course I have no proof at all about what was said at the assessment!! And the assessor twisted his words to the degree it sounded like he was phrasing things a certain way because it will sound more convincing to the decision maker and that he was doing us a favour.
He also claimed he was on the board that had designed the report form he was filling in and he trained other assessors how to fill it in so they too could help the claimants get as much help as they needed so he knows exactly what should be put down and how to phrase it so the decision maker would fully understand and agre with everythig we had said. He even said it may not sound right to you but if I phrase things like this it tell them in a language they understand. So alot of what he read back to me sounded wrong but he said i need to put it this way/that way as it gives the decision maker a better idea and that we must remember that other government departments read this report so be a bit careful how things are put down. But as I say, I have no proof of any of this and no doubt they will take his word over ours!
Was advised on the other forum to get professional help from a welfare officer but we don't know where to goto get this and hubby will not under any circumstance seek CAB advise or similar - he says he doesn't want everyone else knowing his business.
Sorry again for such a long post, just so desperate
There is also a shorted version of this post in another forum where I have had some useful links posted but thought I would ask on here too.My hubby has had DLA at the highest mobility rate and middle care rate for the last 10 years. He got the PIP renewal pack through in January and had his f2f approx 8 weeks ago.
He has just had the decision through and been told he doesn't qualify for any kind of daily living and only the lowest mobility rate which means his car will now have to go back.
He's been awarded 6 for daily living and 10 for mobility.
Tried ringing them because the reasons given are ludicrous! But i got told they could do nothing until the decision maker rings on the 20th (do they ring on a Saturday?) and I can explain it to them.
They've scored him zero for so many things that do apply to him. Just about the only things he doesn't need help with is communicating. They claim because he uses crutches to struggle walking 10 mtrs it means he can walk over 20 metres and also because he uses an electric scooter which he can't take out the car or assemble himself (its a very large scooter that has to be taken apart to fit in the MPV car and we can't use a hoist - looked into having one before and can't use a special vehicle as we need the back seat space for the kids)! There are just so many more things they seem to grossly underscored him for. He is incontinent and needs help to wash his lower half but he can manage his toilet needs! Because he can't use the shower (its upstairs and we are waiting for a downstairs washroom to be fitted - 2 yrs so far!) he doesn't get any points for that. But even with a reachable shower he couldn't use it without me. All the psychiatric ex army nurse kept saying who saw him at the f2f was "so really then its your surroundings that stop you" - erm no its the fact he can't physically do xyz!!!!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
He also kept saying things like - do you have any evidence? This was for things like his depression (he refuses medication so no proof on his prescription) and anxiety (again refuses any help!) among others. As he could not provide any or even understand what evidence would good enough he was told that he couldn't claim for it. When I asked what evidence he needed he said well thats up to you to decide, I can't tell you as it would be seen as me leading your answers. When he asked hubby if he felt he had depression he said no so he said I must take his answer, even though he has took an overdose in the past? Hubby though keeps telling everyone it was accidental so it was not logged as a suicide attempt but I found him and heard what he said and saw the note (since burned unfortunately). Oh but he can manage his meds ok by himself. He can't do his own injection (he's a diabetic) and since his overdose i keep all his tabs locked away and give him what he needs. That didn't count though as physically there's no reason he can't manage himself.
He would also say things like 'remember other government departments will read this report so bear that in mind when it comes to how you can drive etc. Remember if you can't get somewhere on your own other departments may start to question your driving ability' so of course my husband said yes I can plan and undertake any journey on my own - even though I said it wasn't true, he panics if theres a road block or traffic jam and if I weren't there with him he wouldn't know where to go next or what to do!! All he would say was I have to take your husbands answer and as you don't have evidence anyway it wouldn't make any difference!!!
One thing i have found out is that the descriptor must apply to using unadapted devises such as a 'normal toilet, bath or shower' This guy asked if you have a toilet that were able to clean and dry you afterwards would you be able to manage your toileting needs to which my hubby answered yes because he could. However using an unadapted toilet when he has wet or messed himself then no he can't. They have even awarded him 2 points because he can't wash his hair or below his waist but they claim he is able to clean himself up after having an accident. If he can't clean himself below the waist how is he able to wash poo etc off and dry himself and use barrier cream? Also what about putting clean cloths back on by himself when they've already given him points because he needs help to dress his lower half!
He asked hubby how far he could walk so he said he can walk from his chair (next to the front door) to the car door using 2 crutches and this takes him around 5mins with rest stops. So the nurse said so around 20 metres then to which hubby said yes if thats how far it is. Its isn't 20 metres - its 10, i've measured. Again I disagreed but all he would say is I have to take his answer. And in my opinion 5 mins is not performing an activity in a timely manner! It takes me a few seconds.
Oh God sorry for rambling, I just don't understand how they have got to this decision - he's gone from being unable or virtually unable to walk on DLA to being able to walk at least 20 metres with no improvement in his condition, in fact he's worse.
I mean do they ring on a Saturday which is the earliest date he will ring? They don't work then! So that means waiting til Monday after spending Saturday on tenterhooks waiting for the phone to ring.
Also will the decision maker be able to change his mind during that phone call or will he have to go away and think about it?
I will add they did get a report from his GP but of course when he goes there he's all laughing and smiling and "I'm fine!".
Oh and what would be the aid or appliance he could use to cook a meal? He needs 2 crutches to even stand and then after a minute his legs begin to shake and cramp, if he stands for much longer then they just give way. He can't use a perching stool as he also has menieres syndrome which means he is constantly dizzy with spells where it flares up so he he again would need crutches to stabilise himself on a stool even if he did feel safe using one. So how then with his hands full of crutches, feeling dizzy and sick, legs giving way and agony from being riddled with arthritis does he move between surfaces/appliances carrying hot pans or a knife/plate and cook a simple meal from fresh ingredients? What possible aid or appliance would mean he could? He also takes Warfarin following DVT and clots on the lungs so he is at higher risk of serious internal bleed if he were to fall or if he cut himself he would also bleed much more profusely potentially fatally.
Am I on the right sort of lines if I say these things to the decision maker? I have checked out the descriptors before we claimed but doesn't seem to have made any difference, they just seem to ignore them. I also checked out some of the links other helpful people posted but I am struggling to make sense of them fully though I have learned a few things such as descriptors must apply to unadapted appliances.
I am worried too because i think the report does not say what the assessor said as on the decision makers report there is no mention of using adapted toilets or kitchens yet when he read back what he had put there were lots of "if he had everything to hand and the right adjustments and by that i don't mean a perching stool or special cutlery or pans he could cook a meal and use the toilet unaided". Being honest by that point 2 hours in my husband would have agreed to being Jack the Ripper if it meant it were over!!!!
And of course I have no proof at all about what was said at the assessment!! And the assessor twisted his words to the degree it sounded like he was phrasing things a certain way because it will sound more convincing to the decision maker and that he was doing us a favour.
He also claimed he was on the board that had designed the report form he was filling in and he trained other assessors how to fill it in so they too could help the claimants get as much help as they needed so he knows exactly what should be put down and how to phrase it so the decision maker would fully understand and agre with everythig we had said. He even said it may not sound right to you but if I phrase things like this it tell them in a language they understand. So alot of what he read back to me sounded wrong but he said i need to put it this way/that way as it gives the decision maker a better idea and that we must remember that other government departments read this report so be a bit careful how things are put down. But as I say, I have no proof of any of this and no doubt they will take his word over ours!
Was advised on the other forum to get professional help from a welfare officer but we don't know where to goto get this and hubby will not under any circumstance seek CAB advise or similar - he says he doesn't want everyone else knowing his business.
Sorry again for such a long post, just so desperate
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I have already stated that I've posted in another forum - just thought someone might not see that one but see this one and be able to help.
Sorry just so desperate to speak to someone but can't - think i'm going mad0 -
I am so sorry for you. There are a number of organisations that could help you with any appeal but I am afraid that means letting someone else know your business. I agree the whole process is very personal but you and your husband need to decide if it is worth the loss of privacy to claim the benefit - I am not being harsh here, just explaining how it works in the real world. My advice would be to bite the bullet and get help - but I realise that it is hard for both of you.0
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why is he refusing medication and help for his depression and anxiety? does he not want to get better?0
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helping_hand2014 wrote: »why is he refusing medication and help for his depression and anxiety? does he not want to get better?
Because he feel she already takes enough tablets as it is - 61 each day plus an injection. Also he sees admitting depression in himself as a weakness and that he can't cope. I'm not saying that is the right thing to feel but I cant change how he feels can I. And of course he'd like to get better! Depression isnt the only thing he has, thats the least of his illnesses including incontinence and at 45 he finds that degrading enough as it is. He hates being as ill as he is but nothing is ever going to get him better, sorry if I sound offensive but I found that answer very dismissive
I do know how disabling depression is, I have it myself and I do take medication which is not a magic pill that suddenly makes the world wonderful. It's a fight every day.0 -
helping_hand2014 wrote: »why is he refusing medication and help for his depression and anxiety? does he not want to get better?
Many people (including me) refuse medication for depression for reasons other than not wanting to get better.Sealed pot challenge #232. Gold stars from Sue-UU - :staradmin :staradmin £75.29 banked
50p saver #40 £20 banked
Virtual sealed pot #178 £80.250 -
When_the_going_gets_tough wrote: »I am so sorry for you. There are a number of organisations that could help you with any appeal but I am afraid that means letting someone else know your business. I agree the whole process is very personal but you and your husband need to decide if it is worth the loss of privacy to claim the benefit - I am not being harsh here, just explaining how it works in the real world. My advice would be to bite the bullet and get help - but I realise that it is hard for both of you.
Thank you for that. W had a family friend come round to see him today who went through a similar thing herself a few months ago.
She managed to get him to understand that in order to get through this he needs to get help from people who do this sort of thing every day. She told us of a CAB advisor that was really helpful and understanding and also gave us the number of our MPs office who has a gentleman who deal solely with PIP appeals so he actually feels more positive. Her words were, if you needed a tooth out wouldn't you rather use a dentist or let your wife do it after watching it done on you tube?
So the plan is phone calls tomorrow and hopefully get some advice on what to say to the DM when he calls which is meant to be on Saturday though I really can't see that happening!
Thanks again0 -
Do you have the medical report?Sealed pot challenge #232. Gold stars from Sue-UU - :staradmin :staradmin £75.29 banked
50p saver #40 £20 banked
Virtual sealed pot #178 £80.250 -
Do you have the medical report?
No, all we have is a kind if highlighted assessors report where the DM seems to have cherry picked bits out, it's also has a shortened version of what we had put on his form. Like you claim you can only do x, y and z. So I agree you can only a, b and c. There's also 2 sheets with which descriptors have been used, some of which contradict each other :huh:
For example he's got 2 points as he needs help washing below the waist but 0 points as he can manage his toilet needs included his incontinence (both ends) unaided. So he's able to wash poo off, dry himself and apply barrier cream even though they admit he can't wash below the waist.0 -
I wonder if his answers haven't matched. Example - use of a perching stool.
I've only got one leg so it's a god send. I'd never attempt using crutches if dizzy, you just simply can't but you can sit on a stool and it's sitting down really. I can see why on paper that was questioned.
But ... He has dexterity issues in his hands clearly as can't wash himself. The lack of hand movements prevent him cooking not leg support IYSWIM. Carrying to oven and bench etc
Eg shower. I go upstairs on my bottom and bottom shuffle to my shower but I still need help so it's not getting to shower it's showering. I need help as I can't put the perching stool in the shower, nor can I put the outside mat in place.
Am I making sense?0
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