Council succession and points help

Wozzie

Hey,

Long story short I was caring for my grandparents, my nan died 6 months ago and my granddad was taken into care. I put in a Succession of tenancy request as I met all the criteria and the tenancy had never changed hands, I was led to believe for most of this waiting time that I was pretty much definitely going to get the tenancy but as it's bigger than my needs they'd want me to swap.

I was told that as I'm succeeding the tenancy swapping wouldn't be a problem because of the size of the place, the area and transport links etc. All of this was made to sound as though it would be completely hassle free, and I'd be in complete control.

This process has gone on for 6 months, today I got a call telling me I'm getting a discretionary tenancy, I said I was told I would be getting a secure tenancy and she began a whole spiel about "Well as it was a joint tenancy when you're nan died the tenancy was passed to your granddad and..." at this point I cut her off to inform her that point of fact it was not and never had been a joint tenancy (if she was a joint tenant it would have saved her a lot of grief) which she quickly skipped over by saying "Well that's what it says here, I'm just letting you know I'm putting the paperwork through." and that's when I enquired about the ability to do a mutual exchange.

She informed me that would not be an option and I would need to go through a points bidding system.

Here's the thing, if there are places on there I wouldn't mind going this would be fine. The problem is I don't know if I'm under any pressure to move, I know they want me to but if there's nowhere I want to move to or I get consistently outbid surely I could be here for a very long time.

So basically I'm wondering are there measures for that? Do you get more points the longer you're on the system? How exactly does this work?

BigAunty

What is a 'discretionary' tenancy - is it some kind of starter or probationary tenancy?

Your council housing department ought to have a published allocation policy for you to answer your specific questions about bidding on new properties.

To challenge their failure to award you the succession (if that's what has happened), you could go through their complaints procedure, and perhaps then up to the local council ombudsman.

First you need to find out whether it is permissable for them to skip giving you the succession if your grand-dad does not qualify.

The Shelter website ought to have some information about succession, whether or not it is at the council's discretion or whether it is mandatory for you to receive it.

You could also enlist your local MP to help you - they are there to serve you. Perhaps a bit of pressure from them will make them review your tenancy status and accelerate a move into smaller accommodation as a priority or via the mutual exchange scheme, especially if there is a shortage of family sized accommodation.

Have you got a copy of the original tenancy agreement in your nan's sole name?

I find the Shelter advice (this is the Shelter England site) a bit woolly on the matter.

http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/social_housing/about_council_housing/secure_council_tenancies

They have a longer fact sheet on this

http://england.shelter.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/386438/Can_I_pass_my_tenancy_on_if_I_die_Council_tenants_Apr_12.pdf

It's still not clear to me if the council has any right to direct the succession to your grandad or can skip over it to you so that you have a full secure tenancy from the off which would give you the entitlement to a mutual exchange.

xoAmyox

I'm pretty sure that if one party in a joint-tenancy passes away, then there is no change to that tenancy at all, as the parties to it are joint and several. Together they form 'The tenant'.

The tenancy can continue as 'The tenant' is still just that.

pmlindyloo

So your granddad is the tenant?

if so then I think that he has to assign the tenancy to you.

http://www.medway.gov.uk/housing/councilhousing/housingmanagement/succession.aspx

Cissi

Since you say that the tenancy wasn't joint, I wonder if that means that when your Nan passed away your Granddad succeeded the tenancy, in which case there has already been one succession? Also, if it did pass to your Granddad and he was then taken into care then if I've understood correctly you'd be looking for an assignment, not a succession (since he didn't die in the house)? If I'm right then I think he'd have had to apply for this while still living in the house.

Errata

today I got a call telling me I'm getting a discretionary tenancy, I said I was told I would be getting a secure tenancy

You're being given a secure tenancy. The council has used its discretion and given you one.

System

When my dd turns 18 next year we have been advised to add her to the tenancy [joint tenancy myself and husband] because this bungalow was awarded due to her medical needs ,she then would not have any issues in the future.

From what you say you have been awarded a "probationary" tenancy after a set period this will turn into a secure one

Wozzie

BigAunty wrote: »

What is a 'discretionary' tenancy - is it some kind of starter or probationary tenancy?

Your council housing department ought to have a published allocation policy for you to answer your specific questions about bidding on new properties.

To challenge their failure to award you the succession (if that's what has happened), you could go through their complaints procedure, and perhaps then up to the local council ombudsman.

*snip*

This is the thing, my granddad was/is the tenant, my nan was listed with the same status as me I think the classification is non-tenant occupier. My grandad was the sole tenant, he shouldn't have been my nan should have been a joint tenant and I always told her she should get that sorted but she never did and it's come to light she was actually quite forward thinking (probably a result of being far sicker than she ever let on).

I've literally just gotten this information today so am just trying to understand what's what, but given my conversations and the number of times I've had to correct the people in the housing department I'm suspecting there's a mistake somewhere but I can't doing anything until at least the 17th when my housing advisor seems spend more time on holiday than in the office.

I've called Shelter and CAB before, they're helpful but their knowledge is really more for emergency situations than situations like mine.

I appear to have been awarded a tenancy just not for this house on the understanding that I move, I hadn't heard of this. I thought it was (and was made to believe it was) a yes or no thing.

xoAmyox wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that if one party in a joint-tenancy passes away, then there is no change to that tenancy at all, as the parties to it are joint and several. Together they form 'The tenant'.

The tenancy can continue as 'The tenant' is still just that.

Maybe it worked that way at some point but now if a joint tenant dies the tenancy is transferred to the living tenant who becomes the sole tenant, believe me I was worried about that for a long time and was relieved to find out my nan never bothered to change the tenancy.

pmlindyloo wrote: »

So your granddad is the tenant?

if so then I think that he has to assign the tenancy to you.

Yep did that, filled in all the paperwork and provided the ID and met absolutely insane requirements for proof of residence - I was handing in Dominoes Pizza emails at one point.

What followed was months and months of phone tag and waiting for decision makers to make decisions over what decisions they can make before they think about making a decision, and this is the latest development of a process which started with that form.

Cissi wrote: »

Since you say that the tenancy wasn't joint, I wonder if that means that when your Nan passed away your Granddad succeeded the tenancy, in which case there has already been one succession? Also, if it did pass to your Granddad and he was then taken into care then if I've understood correctly you'd be looking for an assignment, not a succession (since he didn't die in the house)? If I'm right then I think he'd have had to apply for this while still living in the house.

My granddad was the sole tenant.

There's a grey area here.

My nan was in hospital for 6 weeks before she died, I used to do most of the heavy lifting and general care stuff but nan was listed as his primary carer so she was the one who kept up with the doctors appointments and medications. In retrospect that was a bad idea but carers get less than the unemployed and as I don't drive it made sense for her to get the benefits of being a carer because to her it was £8 a week more and a few perks, for me it was £25 a week less.

Because my nan was the one who sorted out his mountain of medication and was the contact for all the doctors and nurses I didn't know what to give him or when to give him it. The carers who come around the house I found out were absolutely useless and didn't know anything and... honestly they could have been anyone, I don't know why my nan bothered having those people in the house but that's another conversation for another thread.

The upshot of this was my granddad was taken into what's called respite, it's where people go to have their needs accessed and in my opinion give carers a break. Respite isn't exactly care as people would think of it, it's more like temporary care. That's where he was when my nan died and we were sorting out the paperwork, I don't know if that grey area is responsible for whatever is going on with the tenancy but they can't say he wasn't living here because he was in respite.

That's like saying you're not living in your home when you go on holiday.

Errata wrote: »

You're being given a secure tenancy. The council has used its discretion and given you one.

How can it be a secure tenancy if I'm not allowed to do a mutual exchange? Wouldn't the tenancy depend on where I move to, as far as I'm aware Housing Associations don't of any secure tenancies?

The tenancy isn't so much the issue, I won't know what's going on with that until I get something I can actually read rather than casual conversations with whoever at any given time. I'm just wondering how exactly they enforce people who they want to move but don't, if they're limiting my options by not letting me arrange a mutual exchange and they don't have anywhere I would want to move to after say 6 months would they try to force me to move somewhere?

I don't know how it works, I suspect there's nothing to stop me from just staying here indefinitely until I find somewhere I like but if that's the case I don't understand why they wouldn't allow me to do a mutual exchange and speed up the process.

Unless there are limitations, in which case I'd like to know what I'm walking into.

Errata

as far as I'm aware Housing Associations don't of any secure tenancies?

Of course they do, millions of HA tenants have secure tenancies.

BigAunty

Sorry, I originally thought that you meant that your gran was the sole tenant and died without it transferring to your grandad who is still alive.

I can't see how you can have a succession when the sole tenant is still alive, it's perhaps the area of assignment that you should be investigating. Succession has a dependency on death.

There is a very recent thread on this topic, though the tenant lives in Wales, who is also contesting the issue. See if you can find it.

EDIT - though perhaps getting your grandad to assign the tenancy might be difficult if the property is no longer his primary address now he is in care. When is he coming back? How long has he been away?

Assuming he returns, he remains the tenant so why would he assign the tenancy to you? Has he proposed to ask the landlord for you to become a joint tenant with him?

And can you be a bit more specific about whether it is a council or Housing Association tenancy? In your title, you say its a council succession, then you mention HA.

t0rt0ise

If you don't move out when they want you to then they will get a court order and throw you out. In that case they won't house you at all and you'll lose everything. It seems to me that you can't succede the tenancy because the tenant did not die but simply moved out. I think you need to be grateful for what they are offering you.

Housing Associations don't give a Secure Tenancy but an Assured Tenancy which is the equivalent.